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NY-Gov: Did This Race Just Get a Lot Closer All of a Sudden?

by: DavidNYC

Thu Sep 23, 2010 at 11:32 AM EDT


Quinnipiac (9/16-20, likely voters, 8/23-29 in parens):

Andrew Cuomo (D): 49 (60)
Carl Paladino (R): 43 (23)
Other: 1 (1)
Undecided: 7 (14)
(MoE: ±3.6%)

The entire political world's been abuzz about this poll, showing an astounding tightening of this race in under a month, going from Cuomo +37 to Cuomo +6. In that timeframe, Cuomo's unfavorables spiked, going from 54-21 to 51-34. Still good numbers, but Paladino's name rec has soared, taking him from 16-13 to a not-exactly-great 36-31. The biggest change of all, though, is structural: Quinnipiac finally switched to a likely voter model, whereas all of its previous polling on this race relied on responses from registered voters.

A potentially major issue with this poll is Quinnipiac's failure to include Rick Lazio, who when we last checked still had the Conservative Party line. While Lazio hasn't made up his mind about how vigorously he plans to contest the election, his name will remain on the ballot unless some shenanigoats are pulled on his behalf. (After the Jon Powers debacle last cycle, in which he unsuccessfully tried to have himself taken off the Working Families line by moving out of the state, pretty much the only reliable way off the ballot now is to get nominated for a judgeship - or croak.) Quinnipiac's reasons for not including Lazio don't seem compelling, and as Nate Silver suggests, they could have tested with and without him.

One other detail: Q's poll was in the field for an unusual five days... and I notice their last survey was in the field for seven days. That's definitely on the long side. But in any event, the real question is, is the race really this close? At least one other pollster seems to think so.

SurveyUSA (9/20-21, likely voters, no trendlines):

Andrew Cuomo (D): 49
Carl Paladino (R): 40
Other: 8
Undecided: 3
(MoE: ±4.2%)

Of course, it's SUSA, whose internals have left a lot to be desired this cycle. Once again, 18-34 is the strongest GOP segment, preferring Paladino by a kind of amazing 56-33 margin. But they may yet be right about some things, such as the fact that it's apparently a close race among independents (41-39 Cuomo) - which Quinnipiac sees as well (Paladino is 49-43 with indies). Thankfully Democrats still dominate the New York electorate, but this is still not where you want to be. And if SUSA's 44D-35R-20I sample is correct, then we've had an amazing comedown from 2008's 50D-26R-25I distribution.

But another pollster is seeing things very differently - though with two major caveats.

Siena (PDF) (9/16-17 & 9/19-21, registered voters, 8/9-12 in parens):

Andrew Cuomo (D): 57 (56)
Carl Paladino (R): 24 (14)
Rick Lazio (C): 8 (16)
Undecided: 10 (14)
(MoE: ±3.5%)

The analysis here is basically the inverse of what we said regarding the Q poll. As you can see, of course, Siena tested Lazio, and they don't appear to have done a straight Cuomo-Paladino head-to-head. If the Lazio numbers are at all accurate (and he does stay in the race), then this further butresses the argument that Quinnipiac erred by not including him, since the two right-wingers are clearly sharing the same part of the pie.

But the bigger issue here is that Siena is still clinging to a registered voter model, rather than using a likely voter screen, despite election day being just six weeks away. However, Siena may have offered us a further means for comparison. Here, Paladino narrowed the race by ten points, while Quinnipiac sees him tightening things by thirty. If Siena is right, then the change in Quinnipiac's model would account for something like a twenty-point shift. That would be more or less double the largest shifts we've seen when other pollsters move from RVs to LVs. (Of course, we're comparing apples and oranges here for a variety of reasons; this would be a lot simpler if we had just one outfit that tested both types of voters.)

So what's the answer? Has Paladino turned this into a real race? Or is Cuomo still cruising? I think it's impossible to say without more polling, and I'm sure that the stir these numbers have generated will inspire more companies to go into the field. (And for what it's worth, Harry Enten claims on Twitter that Marist will have a new poll out on Friday showing better results for Cuomo.)

If you're in the mood to be depressed, my good buddy Jake (aka the artist formerly known as Trapper John) thinks Cuomo's in real trouble, and he may well be right. Voters are ticked off and, especially in New York State, truly disgusted at politicians. Cuomo's spent his whole life acting like an entitled twit, and he's seemed to view this election as a coronation. Meanwhile, Paladino, revolting meatbucket that he is, is a true outsider with a ton of money and a lot of anger on his side. If this race comes down to barfbag versus d-bag, voters may just wind up holding their noses. And as a New Yorker, I can tell you that the thought of Gov. Paladino chills me to my soul. Let's just pray Siena is right.

DavidNYC :: NY-Gov: Did This Race Just Get a Lot Closer All of a Sudden?
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Great roundup David
It's also worth noting that the differences extend down the ballot. AG and Sen-B could be trouble . . .

Agreed, great roundup!
I would just add if they are polling for Lazio they might want to poll for City Councilman Charles Barron too.

If Cuomo keeps running to the right Barron might pick up some support on the far left.

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[ Parent ]
I agree about including Barron
I could see him siphoning-off upwards of a quarter of the black vote.

For daily political commentary, visit me at http://polibeast.blogspot.com/ and http://twitter.com/polibeast

[ Parent ]
Barron is making a big stink about the fact that there are no minority candidates
on the Democrats statewide ticket. If Cuomo keeps moving right (like he's been doing) to combat Paladino there might be an opening for Barron to get the 50,000 votes he needs for his Freedom Party.

Right now (if Paladino doesnt implode) I would say Barron could probably get more votes than Lazio could.

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[ Parent ]
Steve Kornacki compares Paladino to John Silber
... and the 1990 MA Governor's race.

(Link: http://www.salon.com/news/poli...

Of course, MA is actually friendlier to cultural conservatism than NY. Plus, Silber was actually running as a Democrat, getting a big chunk of the working-class Democratic vote, and MA also has a larger proportion of independents than NY.

But it was an interesting analogy. I imagine it will be very hard for Paladino (or DioGuardi) to actually win, but if they keep it close, that could spell real doom downballot in House races and State Senate elections.  


is a poll that leaves out Rick Lazio really that legit
seriously.

Lazio might not be in this race much longer
To put it midly after this poll came out Mike Long (the Conservative Party chairman) must have **** a brick!

If Paladino can poll in the 40% range than there is no reason for Lazio to run. His only rational to keep going was that a large portion of GOP voters would find Paladino too toxic to support. These polls show that is not happening.

Heck Paladino is even winning amoung Indepedents. Lazio has no rational or reason to run. Cuomo is running as the right of center establishment "reform" candidate and Paladino is running as the mad as hell anti-establishment guy.

The question becomes do NYers want to fix albany with a wrench or a baseball bat. This poll is showing that quite a few New Yorkers are preferring the baseball bat approach.

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[ Parent ]
Should add watch for Lazio to bow out this weekend
by taking a sacrafical lamb judicial nomination.



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[ Parent ]
Agreed
There is going to be massive pressure on Lazio to drop out now that Paladino looks competitive. Mike Long has a history of bucking the GOP but I don't think he would risk it in a case like this.  

[ Parent ]
The irony here...
is that when the Conservative Party used to break with the NY GOP it was over ideolgy. Buckley/Goodell in 1970,  D'Amato/Javitz in 1980, Rinfret/London in 1990, all 3 of the Rudy & Bloomberg's mayoral runs and Hoffman/Scozzafava the break was ALWAYS about GOP picking Rockefeller Republicans and the Conservative Party going with a more social and economically conservative ideological candidate.

In traditional ideological sense Paladino is way to the right of the fairly moderate Lazio.  

The problem is the election this year is not about ideology. It's about the establishment vs outsiders.

The Conservative Party has become the establishment in NYS.

They are out for patronage jobs and power just like everyone else in Alabny. So they throw the ideology their party was based on out the window and tied their wagon to the establishment candidate Lazio.

In an odd sense the less support from elected officials, political parties and leaders in NY Paladino gets the better off he is.

I watch the call on NY1 last night (a local New York City only cable call in show) that talked about Cuomo getting endorsed by Bloomberg. I was absolutely shocked at the callers responses to the Bloomberg endorsement. It bascially turned everyone off and had them all ranting and raving at Cuomo. Never seen anything like that before.


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[ Parent ]
I would include Lazio, but, in the end, he probably won't be a dealbreaking factor here
Keep in mind, Andrew Cuomo kept the Liberal Party line after he lost the '02 Dem primary to Carl McCall. If I recall correctly, he didn't even break 1%.

For daily political commentary, visit me at http://polibeast.blogspot.com/ and http://twitter.com/polibeast

[ Parent ]
The Gillibrand numbers are even more shocking, IMO.
n/t

Not as shocking
Gilibrand has always been the weaker of the three (Schumer, Cuomo, and Gilibrand).

23, male, center-right cynical Republican, PA-7

[ Parent ]
In the sense that
she is new? I don't think that is a fair assessment. Schumer and Cuomo have been on the national scene for some time now. Gillibrand has shown herself to a strong candidate.

19, Self Appointed Chair of the SSP Gay Caucus (I claimed it first :p), male, Dem, IN-09 (College IN-09) (Raised IL-03, IL-09)

[ Parent ]
There's just little excitement around Gillibrand's candidacy
A lot of machine, hard-rank-and-file Dems love her and think she'll do wonders for the party's performance upstate, but I disagree. The Paladino crowd is bombarding her home turf, and most of upstate seems to have taken a conservative turn in the past year. It wouldn't floor me if DioGuardi proved competitive in her old district, which is full of moderate Republicans and Blue Dog Democrats. And, as been said before, she's hardly beloved downstate. I still sense some resentment that the White House pushed Steve Israel and Carolyn Maloney out of primary contention.

I think we're looking at a map not unlike how New York would often perform pre-Clinton era, where Dems won by running-up scores in the Capital Region and NYC, but were wiped out in rural upstate. In other words, I think Gillibrand wins by high single-digits. (That is, unless Paladino maintains a single-digit deficit himself.)

For daily political commentary, visit me at http://polibeast.blogspot.com/ and http://twitter.com/polibeast


[ Parent ]
That's if these
polls are correct, which seems unlikely, given Sienna's poll. Paladino is not going to be within single digits.

19, Self Appointed Chair of the SSP Gay Caucus (I claimed it first :p), male, Dem, IN-09 (College IN-09) (Raised IL-03, IL-09)

[ Parent ]
Siena avoided the post-primary bounce
they polled Wed-Thurs and again Sun-Tues, not polling Fri & Sat. I normally don't think that makes much difference but in a state where a huge part of the electorate is NYC it probably makes some sense.

But this also means less affect from post-primary publicity that I now am quite convinced caused the distorted numbers from Quinn and SUSA.


"Let's just *pray* Siena is right."
Appropriate, since they are a Catholic college :)

Down-ticket impact
Sorry about commenting twice, but if the NY-Gov and NY-Sen races are closer than expected, that could have a big impact on the half-dozen potentially competitive House races:

NY-1
NY-13
NY-19
NY-20
NY-23
NY-24
NY-25


I think averaging all the recent polls together gives the clearest picture
When that is done, Cuomo leads 52-36 and that is where I think the race is about at. Same with Gillibrand, averaging everything out, she leads 49-39. I'm actually glad these polls came out, it keeps Democrats from getting too complacent in New York.

24, male, African-American, CA-24, Democrat. Chair of the SSP Black Caucus.

I hate to say it
but right now I trust Rasmussen's numbers.

Tis the season
wneh he tries to get as close as possible to the end result.

[ Parent ]
FWIW, Cuomo
is going negative.

Good. There's lots of bad things to say about Paladino, but I think Cuomo chose the ones relevant to this election.  


I'm glad, I'd feared he'd boxed himself in with his promise not to wage a negative campaign......
I don't believe in pretending to be high-and-mighty in campaigning.  Negative campaigning is fair as long as the attacks are at least arguably accurate.

43, male, Indian-American, Democrat, VA-10

[ Parent ]
"All's fair in love and politics"
Agreed, you have to get your hands dirty sometimes if you want to win.


20, CD MA-03/NH-01/MA-08

[ Parent ]
Not a good ad
I rolled my eyes when I saw this and the similar one run by the NYS Democratic Party.

While the allagations might be true that Paladino played in the system no one is going to buy that he's an insider. It's hilariously ridiculous and no one is going to buy it.

If anything the ad is just setting Paladino up for a layup response. All he's got to say is of course I HAD to make donations. Anybody who wants to build anything in NYS has to pay off the politicians because that's how the system in New York works. It's a crooked system where politicans forcibly extort money from busineses. If you dont pay them off they jam you up.

Paladino should just say he's been a victim of it for too long, is fed up with it and is going to change the system by putting the extorting pols in jail.

Believe me that message will sell in NY. It's a dumb ad on Cuomo's part.


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[ Parent ]
The ad is good, and your proposed Paladino comeback is a turnover, not a layup......
Saying he paid off politicians "because I had to" is just admitting to paying to play, which voters don't forgive.

In developing countries you can get away with saying you HAVE to pay bribes for basic public services, because it's true.  Front-line government employees really are that corrupt in those countries.

But you can't make that argument in America.  Voters don't accept pay-to-play from either side of the deal, and in fact punish you either way.

The ad works on its own terms, and the killer line is calling Paladino a "welfare king who got rich milking taxpayers."  Oh, snap!  That's memorable.  As is pointing to $1.4 million for "one job."

43, male, Indian-American, Democrat, VA-10


[ Parent ]
That's the point!
You can make that arguement in New York State because things have gotten so bad in State governement that people will believe it.

Paladino polling in the 40s should scare the bejesus out of NY Democrats.

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[ Parent ]
No, you can't "argue" that you paid a bribe and it was justified......
That "argument" doesn't fly anywhere in American politics.  I don't care what's going on in NY state government, arguing a "defense" that you "had" to pay up to get something you wanted is an admission of wrongdoing that voters hold against you.

If Paladino wants to make that argument, he can go ahead, I'll love it.  He'll bleed voters with every word out of his mouth.

43, male, Indian-American, Democrat, VA-10


[ Parent ]
Very weak, in my opinion
Cuomo should hit Paladino where it hurts - showcase those damn e-mails and paint him for the racist slimeball that he is. This ad, meant to portray Paladino as sort of "politics as usual" is...well, politics as usual. There's nothing here to drive-up Paladino's negatives.  

For daily political commentary, visit me at http://polibeast.blogspot.com/ and http://twitter.com/polibeast

[ Parent ]
Survey USA's Poll Is Off
I wouldn't worry too much about the SurveyUSA poll.  DioGuardi isn't going to realistically get 35% in the city.  As long as Cuomo rips Paladino in NYC he'll be fine.  

These guys took a look at the historic vote totals in NYC:

http://www.beyondthepolls.net/...


Okay, but Survey USA's internals are ALWAYS wacky
With all due respect, I don't think they're really worth an entire column's worth of analysis. Of course DioGuardi won't get 35% in NYC. He could, on the flip side, be up 14% in Western New York, as opposed to the 4% in their poll. The crosstabs are always pretty funky.

This all being said, I buy a 1-point Gillibrand lead if Cuomo's only up by 9. I trust Quinnipiac more than Survey USA, but I happen to think DioGuardi must out-perform Paladino by at least a few points.

For daily political commentary, visit me at http://polibeast.blogspot.com/ and http://twitter.com/polibeast


[ Parent ]
SurveyUSA
No way Gillibrand is down 12 upstate. I know their internals are always wacky--young people love them some DioGuardi!--but I can't buy polls that have Gillibrand down that much. I worked there for her--she's too popular up there.


NY-14, DC-AL (college) Distraught Mets fan

The thing is, there's a difference between Sen. Gillibrand and fmr. Rep. Gillibrand
She was beloved upstate when she served as an unabashed Blue Dog in the House. Now, she's played a game of flippity-flop. Wouldn't surprise me at all if her numbers have taken a hit, especially given Paladino's rise up there.

For daily political commentary, visit me at http://polibeast.blogspot.com/ and http://twitter.com/polibeast

[ Parent ]
I wonder
If she were still in the House, could she be in trouble this year? The gut reaction is no, but there are a lot of other Democrats in both chambers (Patrick Murphy, Russ Feingold) that are now as likely to lose as to win that absolutely no one thought was at risk in January '09. Should DioGuardi make this a competitive race, Gillibrand may very well lose NY-20.

20, CD MA-03/NH-01/MA-08

[ Parent ]
Siena polledher district last week...
She had a 60% approval amongst likely voters in her old district.

[ Parent ]
Gillibrand goes on the attack
Looks like NARAL is prepared to tear down DioGuardi's abortion views.

http://polhudson.lohudblogs.co...

For daily political commentary, visit me at http://polibeast.blogspot.com/ and http://twitter.com/polibeast


Can't find the crosstabs, but...
Looking at the results for "Republicans", "Democrats", and "independents", it looks like there are roughly equal numbers of R and D in their sample.  Does anyone know if this has ever been observed in a real New York election in modern times??  This looks like there might be a failure in the likely voter model.  The 23-point Paladino margin in 18-34s seems particularly suspect-- reminicent of the one Siena 2008 poll where McCain led New York because of a large lead among Jews, despite the fact that no R has ever won the Jewish vote in a presidential election.

More Analysis
http://www.quinnipiac.edu/x131...

From their results and a little algebra, the weighting for the top line was 25% R, 31% D, and 44% Ind.  There is a tea party question, and from this we conclude that the T's in the poll said they were 47% R, 9% D, and 44% I's.  Since we know the Tea Party is not known for their independence from the Republican Party, this doesn't make any sense.  If we reassign all the T's to the Republicans, the Republican Tea Party accounts for 35% of this sample, which is more than the amount of Democrats.  Not a likely turnout result in New York.


[ Parent ]
Btw, I spent one class today just doing NY calculations by hand...
(Sad, I know.)

I came up with...

Cuomo 58/Paladino 42
Schumer 62/Townsend 38
Gillibrand 54/DioGuardi 46
Schneiderman 52/Donovan 48
DiNapoli 55/Wilson 45

With a voter model of 46D/29R/25I.

For daily political commentary, visit me at http://polibeast.blogspot.com/ and http://twitter.com/polibeast



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