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IL-Sen: Kirk Takes a Sniff

by: James L.

Wed Dec 10, 2008 at 4:37 PM EST


GOP Rep. Mark Kirk is seriously considering a run for Barack Obama's seat if a special election occurs:

In an interview Wednesday morning, Kirk said he was looking at running but thought state legislators' first priority should be getting Blagojevich out of office.

"I will look at it," Kirk said. "As far as the people of Illinois, the first job is not to decide how we pick a Senator. The first job is getting rid of the governor."

But Kirk doesn't stop there. Displaying his characteristic style of douchebaggery, the faux moderate rips into five of the six Senate candidates mentioned in the federal complaint against Blago:

Kirk did not hold back his disdain for "Senate Candidates one through five" mentioned the federal complaint, at least one of whom the governor said offered money upfront in return for the Senate appointment.

"I think if they were heavily involved with Rod Blagojevich, they will not be viable for a special election - if they can hold public office at all," Kirk said.

The Illinois Republican said Senate candidates one through five "need to sign criminal attorneys and try to protect themselves against coming indictments."

This is pretty vile, considering that it's not clear that any candidates alluded to in the indictment (aside from possibly numbers four and five) engaged in anything shady, especially Senate Candidate #1, who most assume is Valerie Jarrett -- someone who withdrew her name from consideration after earning the ire of Blago for not offering him anything other than "appreciation" for an appointment.
James L. :: IL-Sen: Kirk Takes a Sniff
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IL-Sen: Kirk Takes a Sniff | 68 comments
but Jesse Jackson Jr did
and he was the one who was most expected. But who is Valerie Jarrett.

Plus, come on james, its realky not douchbaggery, he didn't say all Democrats considering running for the special election were involved, just some and that those who were shouldn't hold office and would'nt be viable, I agree with that. There's nothing I find offensive in his statements. Kirk would be a good candidate, but if the special election is 2010 he wouldn't be able to run for his congressional seat, which would give us a nice pick up, though he was likely to be gerrymandered out in 2012 anyway.  

Call no man happy until he is dead-Aeschylus

Hell yes it's douchebaggery
He calls into question Jarrett's fitness for public office, when it's very clear that she did nothing improper. Blagojevich even called Obama "a motherfucker" because they wouldn't pay to play in order to get her the job. And if you don't know who Valerie Jarrett is, Google is your friend.
[ Parent ]
I didn't know that who Valarie Jarrett is
was supposed to be common knowledge. She doesn't sound that notable, an advisor to Obama, and Mayor's Washington and Dailey, a member of teh Chicago transit board, sounds smart, but, YAWN. No real portfolio as a known elected official or legislator to speak of. Might be a good thing right now in Illinois though. Not the best way to get the 2010 cycle started. Thanks a lot Blagojevich, what a self-serving, egomanical prick.  

Call no man happy until he is dead-Aeschylus
[ Parent ]
No offense, but
As an elections junkie, I'm pretty surprised that you've never heard her name before. She was mentioned in many, many news articles for days as Obama's preferred choice for his Senate seat.
[ Parent ]
I know, and I'm someone who
knows the voting trends and patterns of half the counties and congressional districts in the country as well as just about every elected politician who was ever mentioned for anything.  

Call no man happy until he is dead-Aeschylus
[ Parent ]
Similar case here
I know way too much about downballot races but largely ignored the presidential race this year (to the annoyance of quite a few people who tried to talk politics to me).

Bill Posey is not half-alligator...and is outclassed by Davy Crockett anyway
[ Parent ]
I agree with that douchebag Kirk...
...except for including Jarrett in his assessment of the situation.  Kirk is making a generalized statement about the 5 candidates, without specifying that at least one of them refused to play along.  It's not factually accurate, but I don't know if he necessarily intended anything douchebaggy by it.  Maybe he's trying to create a lie to tie Obama to the scandal, or simply to make his potential Democratic rivals for the Senate seat seem unfit, but the facts just wouldn't hold up on Jarrett and Obama, so I don't really see the point.

I have no idea why the state legislature thinks they should be doing anything but impeaching Blagojevich right now.  That definitely should be their first priority, followed by the special election.  And I also agree with Kirk that anybody who tried to play ball with Blagojevich should never hold elected office, especially Jesse Jackson Jr., if he is indeed guilty of attempting to purchase a Senate seat.  He should be removed from Congress immediately, if that's the case.

[ Parent ]
Nothing has been pinned to JJ Jr. at this time. Don't go crucifying him yet.
Something to consider is that if a special election occurs in 2009, it would be a for a 1-year senate term only to be up for re-election for the six year term one year later.  Kirk would bite on this because he would not lose his house seat to run for senate.  

Ark - Fitzgerald said the only people accused of wrongdoing are Blago and his Chief of Staff.  Until then there is no point to feed this idea that anyone who Blago considered is automatically involved and unfit for public office because it is pure ass hattery, to try and characterize his potential opponents as corrupt Blago lackies.  

[ Parent ]
from ABC news
Chicago Rep. Jesse Jackson Jr., D-Ill., is the anonymous "Senate Candidate No. 5" whose emissaries Illinois Gov. Rod Blagojevich reportedly offered up to $1 million to name him to the U.S. Senate, his attorney confirmed today after it was reported earlier on ABCNews.com "The Blotter".

And, from the AP:


Attorney: US Rep. Jesse Jackson is 'Candidate 5'
1 hour ago

CHICAGO (AP) - A lawyer for U.S. Rep. Jesse Jackson Jr. says the congressman is the "Senate Candidate 5" mentioned in the federal corruption complaint against Illinois Gov. Rod Blagojevich. Attorney James D. Montgomery Sr. said Wednesday that Jackson never had a "pay-to-play" conversation with Blagojevich.

The governor is accused of trying to profit from his authority to appoint a replacement to fill President-elect Barack Obama's Senate seat.

Montgomery says Jackson "never authorized anyone to seek the governor's support" for anything of value.

And he says Jackson isn't aware of any associates having made such an overture on his behalf.

Montgomery says Jackson learned he was mentioned in the complaint against Blagojevich the night before the governor's arrest on Tuesday.

Now what should we not be jumping to conclusions on? If Jackson was ever viable statewide he sure as hell isn't now.  

Call no man happy until he is dead-Aeschylus

[ Parent ]
There's nothing there that suggests criminal activity
on behalf of Jackson. Does this probably take him out of the running? Yes, but that doesn't mean he's corrupt or that he should be removed from his seat.

Visit Election Inspection for first-rate political analysis.
[ Parent ]
umm,
if you offer a governor one million dollars in campaign contributions to buy a senate seat...I don't personally believe you should be in office.

Call no man happy until he is dead-Aeschylus
[ Parent ]
Re-read that again
And tell me exactly where it is clear that Jackson "sent" anyone to talk to Blago about this. Just because Blago thought that people talking to him were speaking for Jackson, doesn't mean that they were (take a law class or something before insulting me, by the way).

Visit Election Inspection for first-rate political analysis.
[ Parent ]
your words not mine
I idn't say he sent anyone, but that's a good term. House aides don't go out on their own offering a million dollars for the senate seat. Sorry, but you're an idiot if you believe that and I wasn't insulting you in the first reply.  

Call no man happy until he is dead-Aeschylus
[ Parent ]
You weren't insulting me?
"I don't personally believe you should be in office" what was that supposed to be, a compliment? And you have no trouble calling me an "idiot" in this post, when you're the one who's basically demanding Jackson's removal and arrest when you have absolutely no proof of criminal wrong-doing. Saying that "house aides don't just go on their own offering a million dollars for the senate seat" sounds lovely and all, but even if I were to accept that (which, I don't, for the record) you still haven't explained why that makes this "criminal". As shady as it sounds, this probably isn't illegal, as this has to do with fundraising, which is perfectly legal in Illinois.

Now, should this disqualify him from running for the seat? Absolutely. Does this mean that Jackson is a criminal? No.

Visit Election Inspection for first-rate political analysis.

[ Parent ]
I was using "you"
in different way. I was using "you" to as open ended statement, i.e. "I don't peronsally believe anybody should be in office."

Call no man happy until he is dead-Aeschylus
[ Parent ]
I didn't say that Jackson
should be going to jail, I would like to add that as well, for the record.

Call no man happy until he is dead-Aeschylus
[ Parent ]
Emmissarys =/= JJ Jr. It means an aide of his approached Blago.
You're automatically assuming that 1. JJ Jr. was his own emmissary or 2. that he authorized it.  Neither of which have been proven or contended by your article.  
[ Parent ]
duh!!!
He'd have to as f------- stupid as Blagojevich to do it himself. You never personally implicate yourself in shady dealings. I'm from Louisiana, I know a thing or two about corrupt politics.

Call no man happy until he is dead-Aeschylus
[ Parent ]
IF
if is the tricky word in there.  JJ says he didn't make the offer nor did he authorize it.  And I understand the offer was to raise $500,000 for Blago's campaign account as opposed to personally giving him a million bucks.  Blago is dirty, no question.  Let's not assume that muck sticks to JJ without some kind of proof.  Right now, nothing in the public domain ties JJ to this at all.

It may prove to be, as JJ's lawyer suggested, a surogate acting without authority.

Let's wait and see.

[ Parent ]
come on, how gulliable are you
surogates don't go offering people a million dollars in campaign contributions on their own without any authority. But of course Jackson would make sure to keep himself clean and maintain his deniability by not being personally involved in it. I'm not that forgiving or that naive when it comes to politics.

Call no man happy until he is dead-Aeschylus
[ Parent ]
If it was a JJ Jr. aide
Which it most likely was, you know he or she will flip the second Fitzgerald starts grilling them and implicate the boss (JJ Jr.)  If that indeed is what happened.  Noone is going to be willing to go to jail for their boss.
[ Parent ]
thank you


Call no man happy until he is dead-Aeschylus
[ Parent ]
Just because he or she were to slip doesn't automatically mean
the boss did it.  Again, you're inferring guilt with no cohesive evidence.  People testify false information.  It happens.  Especially to save their own ass.  Chad's comment wasn't an affirmation of everything you've been saying.  
[ Parent ]
but it was someone who finally
was trying to define Jackson against common sense and the evidence. Like I said, aides don't go wing it and do this kind of thing on their own.

Call no man happy until he is dead-Aeschylus
[ Parent ]
your joking right?
if you think for a second that aids don't go do stuff on their own your insane.  Its called, building themselves up.  

I have no doubt that an aide that knew Blago was corrupt might want to sell the senate seat and ran to him in an effort to ingratiate himself with JJ Jr.  

Look boss, all you have to do is fundraise x amount and your the next senator!!    

I work the local scene in politics here and I can tell you right now that aids do not only the bidding of the people who they work for, but go out of their way to get info that would be useful for their boss and their own career if they can.  

Check out http://electioninspection.word... for the latest news, election results, poll analysis, and predictions

[ Parent ]
now that's delusional
its so completely reckless. No aide would do that on his own. There's a difference between making a contact on your own, writing up some legislation, etc, and offering someone a million dollars for a Senate seat. That's a bigger conspiracy, one person in a political organization just doesn't go off and do this, they have to be more disciplined than that to survive, so others had to be involved and anyway you put it Jackson would have to have some knowledge and approval that it was going even if he wasn't involved, becuase it Was HIS political organization.

Call no man happy until he is dead-Aeschylus
[ Parent ]
No one does that?
How do you know? Did you ask every aide everywhere? Just because you think no one would do this doesn't mean that isn't exactly what happened.

People do outrageous, stupid, criminal shit all the time. And yes, there are certainly enough idiotic people in politics who would go off freelancing without their boss's consent on something this foolish. I would encourage you to revise your views that there aren't people who would do this sort of thing - the world is a harsh place filled with many dumb people. "I thought you would have wanted me to" is a phrase that gets said a thousand times a day throughout this great land.

And if, lo and behold, it turns out JJJ did know about this, that doesn't vindicate your point that he had to know about it.

[ Parent ]
I was a Senate Page
I worked with aides, I knew aides, aides don't do stuff this big, and not on their own. The top of the hierachy would now, the chief of staff, and if he knows you can bet JJJ knew. I do have some experience with this and with backroom politics.  

Call no man happy until he is dead-Aeschylus
[ Parent ]
I agree completely
and I don't see how this is an insult to anyone in anyway.  
[ Parent ]
Nice links
So what did Jackson do that should remove him from public office and for that matter go to jail for?  Sure it is some nice links you posted.  I'm not arguing whether Jackson is senate candidate five or not.  

I am saying that Rod Blago said he thought he could get money from SC#5.  This is the same guy who said he thought he could clean his image up as a US Senator and run for president in 2016.  Consider the f***ing source.  (to put it in a way Blago would).  If JJ Jr has an aide acting out of line trying to buy a senate seat, that is a problem.  It is not automatically JJ Jr's fault that an aide would act out of line unless there has been previous activity from this individual that has gone ignored.

It taints any potential statewide bid because his aide would be made an issue of, no matter who he ran against.  But again, you're arguing for Kirk's asshattery statements.    

[ Parent ]
look I think myself as someone who is not
an idiot, and someone who knows how politics works. If you read the article Jackson's lawyer said "emmisiaries" of Jackson offered Blago one million dollars. Of course! What fucking moron, (other than Blago), would do anything unscupulous like that in person. Plausible deiniability, so you can't directly let yourself be involved in anything. It looks perfectly clear to me that Jackson wanted the seat, Blago was playing hardball, and Jackson offered to raise a million dollars for his Governor campaign, through "emmissiaries". The conclusions don't strike me as ass hattery and I'm almost always willing to give a Democrat the benefit of the doubt, which I've given to every Democrat in legal trouble except for William Jefferson, (though my grandfather claims he was framed).

Call no man happy until he is dead-Aeschylus
[ Parent ]
You're crucifying Jackson without a trial
Second, if they were phone-tapping him, I would get someone to approach him with a tape recorder.  Who better than "an emmissary" from a candidate vying for the appointment?  Jesus Christ.  
[ Parent ]
Even if it's true that Jackson "authorized" it
That doesn't make it criminal. Offering to fundraise for a candidate for someone (who was planning to run for re-election) to get the senate seat might be seedy, but there is nothing criminal about it. There has been absolutely nothing coming from Fitzgerald or anyone close to him that there is any sort of indictment coming.

Visit Election Inspection for first-rate political analysis.
[ Parent ]
I didn't say it was criminal
just that he shouldn't be a Senator now, shouldn't even run, and has damaged his reputation. I don't expect him to be charged or indicted unless he's caught perjuring himself under oath.  

Call no man happy until he is dead-Aeschylus
[ Parent ]
I'd agree with that
Jackson Jr.'s short-term problem isn't inpropriety or criminality, but rather the appearance of it.  He may very well have committed no crime here, but enough people are going to think he did in the short-term that the guy won't be able to win a Senate race.
[ Parent ]
And to compound his problems
Jackson Jr. has his last name to deal with.  Even before this scandel that he may or may not have been involved in many people disliked him simply because of who his father is.  
[ Parent ]
Kirk is a butthole.
Senate Candidates One Two Three Four AND Five "will not be viable for a special election... if they can hold public office at all"?  You realize that Lisa Madigan, Valerie Jarrett, and probably a congressperson like Jan Schakowski or Luis Gutierrez are all in that group, right?  The group that Mark Kirk doubts are fit for public office at all?

That is a butthole thing to say.  It's going way beyond the bounds of what is appropriate to the situation as it's developed so far.  Sure, maybe another Senate Candidate besides Five will be exposed in contemptible actions, and Five looks like he may well be busted out of the House.  But to tar a bunch of good people with the same broad sticky negative brush, just because you're from the other party and so you can, is a butthole thing to do.  It's not classy.

I have not always gotten all of the personal commentaries that have been offered here (Chris Shays, Mark Kirk, Stu Rothenberg), largely because I'm not paying super close attention to any of these characters or their peers, so I don't have a good sense of when one has stepped across the invisible line into unusually contemptible behavior.  But every now and then I do see one I get (like "being black" carries as much political meaning as "being an elected Republican"... butthole), and this is one of them.  That was a classless and unnecessary thing to say.  And also just effective enough to be significant in press narratives going forward, which is why it's so offensive.

[ Parent ]
I know Jan Schakowski isn;t and
Madigan is, but i doubt Guiterrez, he didn't even want to run for reelection at first.

Call no man happy until he is dead-Aeschylus
[ Parent ]
but you people really are too sensitive
I don't analyze and scrutinize everything people say looking for things to offend me. That's usually a good policy that's worked for me.  

Call no man happy until he is dead-Aeschylus
[ Parent ]
"I don't analyze and scrutinize everything people say looking for things to offend me"
I don't either.  I do, however, read things closely, and detect the full meaning of phrases even when they're subtly or artfully couched.  At least, I try to.  And that's been a very good policy for me, because doing less than that means missing some of the meaning that people are communicating.  Sometimes it would mean missing a subtle insult, sometimes it would mean missing a subtle compliment, or subtle instruction, or subtle suggestion.  Perceiving the full measure of meaning in the words people say is a pretty good idea, I think.

And if there's any question that the insult here was not just imagined by us, notice how Roll Call wrote their article.  It's laced with not-so-subtle indications that what Kirk said was unusually aggressive.  

[ Parent ]
Oh and James, I don't see why you stopped there, because Kirk sure didn't.
He went on to say that Senate Candidates One through Five "need to sign criminal attorneys and try to protect themselves against coming indictments."

"I think Senate candidate number 5 is going to get indicted, so that person better get a good criminal attorney," Kirk added.

Thanks for the free advice asshole.  Thanks for looking out for the best interests of Valerie Jarrett et al.  

"coming indictments"?!  Like he has the ability to predict what Pat Fitzgerald is going to do.  You'd have had a West Wing office three years ago if you were that smart, buddy.

[ Parent ]
Candidatenumber five is JAckson
so he wasn't referring to Jarrett there.  

Call no man happy until he is dead-Aeschylus
[ Parent ]
Read again
The Illinois Republican said Senate candidates one through five "need to sign criminal attorneys and try to protect themselves against coming indictments."

[ Parent ]
His comments included candidates 1-5
Saying Jarrett needs a criminal attorney to fight off an indictment?  Lisa Madigan needs a criminal attorney to fight off an indictment?  Are you f***ing kidding me?  
[ Parent ]
that's assuming Jarrett
is candidate number 1, which we don't know right now, whereas Jackson's lawyers have revealed that he is under scrutiny as candidate number 5.  

Call no man happy until he is dead-Aeschylus
[ Parent ]
Seriously?
Senate Candidate 1 took him or herself out of the running and was Obama's favorite to replace him.  Sound familiar?  (Valerie Jarret was Obama's pick to replace him and she took herself out of the running early).  It is widely speculated that she is SC #1.  
[ Parent ]
that's an inference
you've gotten mad at me for doing a similar thing

Call no man happy until he is dead-Aeschylus
[ Parent ]
I never got on your case for inferring that JJ Jr. was SC #5
I was getting on your case for inferring guilt when there is a lack of any cohesive evidence, which is something our country was built against.  
[ Parent ]
It's more specific than that
This candidate is a female, an adviser to Obama and said to be the president-elect's top choice for the Senate seat.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITI...

So yeah, we're inferring that it's Jarrett, but not all inferences are created equal.

[ Parent ]
Good point
Thanks, I'm not sure why I left that extra piece of dickbreathed commentary out. Gonna go back and include that extra line.
[ Parent ]
ugh Kirk concerns me
He's extremely viable statewide.  

Liberty Avenue Politics - a place for politics in Southern Queens
Yes. Also, Blago has not only screwed the pooch
for himself, but probably has made the Dem label toxic in the near term in IL for this special election (if there is one) early next year.
Kirk should have a good chance.

Our best hope scenario: Blago listens to Obama, and finds one last shred of decency and resigns. And his replacement appoints a placeholder to the Senate for the next two years.

Then in 2 years, the Blago bad taste will have dissipated. And our best candidate for the general election can emerge from the primaries, even if that's one of "candidates #1-4". I assume "candidate #5" is done.

[ Parent ]
I'm getting Spitzer deja-vu with all these aliases.
Client #9 anyone? ._.
[ Parent ]
so who's actually our best candidate?
The thing about a special election BEFORE 2010 is that members of Congress could probably run without resigning their house seats, which is a pretty nice insurance policy.

The downside of that is Kirk.  

The upside is: Run, Shakowsky, Run!  I think Jan Shakowsky would be a fantastic senator.  She is serious & progressive.

(But would we be better off with Lisa Madigan, who has won statewide already?  I have to admit I know almost nothing about Madigan's politics.)

Madigan is widely speculated to be running for Governor in 2010.

[ Parent ]
With Gilchrest and Shays gone, Kirk is now the second most liberal GOP House member.
He'd win DuPage and Lake counties and crush downstate -- especially in this atmosphere. I'd be very interested in seeing some SUSA polls on potential match-ups. I think we should go with someone already known statewide.
Not on Progressive Punch
Eliminating those not coming back in 2009, Kirk rates behind four GOPers for 2007/08: Chris Smith, Frank Lo Biondo, Tim Johnson, and Mike Castle.  His lifetime score is a little worse with seven returning GOPers ahead of him: Chris Smith, Ron Paul, Mike Castle, Tim Johnson, Dave Reichert, Rodney Alexander and Frank Lo Biondo.

Johnson's from IL so Kirk is the second most moderate House member from his own state.

Alexander's numbers are puffed up from his time as a Democrat.  As a Republican, he's not so liberal or even moderate.

It'll be interesting to see how moderate Leonard Lance turns out to be.  Also Erick Paulson.  

[ Parent ]
Ron Paul? LOL!
Knowing PP, I think they might have put too much emphasis on stuff like Iraq and wiretapping. Ron Paul is no moderate on anything economic, environmental, or social with the exception of the FMA.

Chris Smith should just become a Democrat. He's quite good on labor issues, human rights, veteran's issues, and environmental stuff. Let him vote with the GOP on abortion. Who cares?  

[ Parent ]
He votes with Dems far more than most repubs
International issues are a major part of policy in the House and Ron Paul is with progressive on many of those votes.  Ya I know for all the wrong reasons, but a vote is a vote.  Paul is the best we can hope for in his conservative Texas district, much like Walter Jones is the best we're getting in NC-03.
[ Parent ]
the main thing is Ron Paul
votes against all national spending bills as a point of principle, so that pits with the majority of Democrats against a majority of Republicans on a lot of bills.

I'm really starting to like Jones, he's been so moderate overall lately, and he's been getting even more cooperative. He really is one of my favorite, principled Republicans.

Call no man happy until he is dead-Aeschylus

[ Parent ]
Tim Johnson is a surprise
becuase he represents a pretty Republican district.

Call no man happy until he is dead-Aeschylus
[ Parent ]
i'm not sure about Lake
especially agianst an untainted Democrat. Obama won it 60-40 last month and he only represents the outer most, most Republican portion of it.

Call no man happy until he is dead-Aeschylus
[ Parent ]
Mark Kirk, the next senator from Illinois
Realistically, the seat is his if he wants it.

Only chance is a tainted appointment, but Kirk would win the seat in 2010.

Absolute rubbish
You are seriously the most pessimistic person I have ever come across. Could Kirk possibly win? Sure. Is he a shoe-in? Ridiculous!
[ Parent ]
Yeah.
This is a rather blue state (and rather large, making it hard to change that blueness), and the situation here isn't the entire D party breaking down, it's just the governor who's lack of ethics has gotten him and maybe a few people around him into trouble.

Debbie, throw Blago under the bus and get out quick, if any of this is anywhere near you.

While Kirk might have a 40-45% floor in a special election, I don't think it'd be at all easy for him to get the rest to 50%.

Bill Posey is not half-alligator...and is outclassed by Davy Crockett anyway

[ Parent ]
Blagojevich taint other Dems?
That's not coming across in the media.

And if there was one Dem that could fairly be linked to Blagojevich it was Debbie Halvorson, who over-performed compared to the other Dem Congressional candidates.

Blagojevich's greatest enemy is Michael Madigan, the chair of the Illinois Dem Party.

Blagojevich is an entity unto himself. I'm not concerned about him dragging any other Dem down by guilt by association absent additional evidence of misconduct.

and in two years
voters will be less willing to link Halvorsen to Blagojevich's shortcomings, especially isnce she'll have herown record by then.

Call no man happy until he is dead-Aeschylus
[ Parent ]
have a few people lost their minds?
mark kirk's statements were silly and nakedly political.  candidates 1-5, with the possible exception of jj jr, are guilty of absolutely nothing other than blago putting their names on a list.  also, i suspect, candidates 1-4 could all kick mark kirk's scrawny ass unless he can get the public to believe they are guilty of something because blago considered appointing them.

also, an emmissary, if such a person exists (it's blago saying this, no one else), could be an aide, but would more likely be a high-powered wealthy supporter who could write a big check him/herself or could put together events so as to get the money.

kirk's a typical hack, but is maybe a little over-eager.  traditionally when someone of the other party is on fire you let them burn, you don't run up with a can of gasoline.

IL-Sen: Kirk Takes a Sniff | 68 comments

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