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Something I might diary at DK on the merger

by: tietack

Tue Feb 08, 2011 at 9:37 AM EST


Update -- I have decided to go through with this.

The intent of this diary will be to test reactions from the DK community.

I will wait a few days to post this on DK. My target date will be the day it is discussed on the FP there, probably when DavidNYC returns from his vacation. My username is the same there. If you're free at that time, your support will be appreciated.

Title: Will Daily Kos welcome the full range of Swing State Project users?

Subtext: Can a not so liberal Democrat feel Welcome at Daily Kos?

SubSubtext: Can a poster who feels lost in a huge fast moving community feel comfortable in a big city environment like Daily Kos?

I am a Democrat. I mostly left Daily Kos (DK) a while back in '07, in part because it had grown a bit too large for me. In addition, I was starting to feel out of place, given the tenor of some of the comments. But I am currently a regular poster at Swing State Project (SSP). I felt like I had a home there, because of the focus on more Democrats, because they welcomed more conservative Democrats, and even have a significant population of "respectful" moderate and conservative Republican posters. Now that they are being merged under the DK umbrella, I feel like I'm being pushed back. I feel like I'm about to lose my community.

tietack :: Something I might diary at DK on the merger
Susan Gardner, DK executive editor, has tried to make us feel welcome. http://www.swingstateproject.c... She has tried to reassure us that SSP will be able to retain its culture, post-merger. In context, her welcome reminds me of the promises from China just before they took Hong Kong back from the UK. One liberal blogsphere, two systems?

First, I'm not implying any similarity between DK and Communism, Maoism, or any sort of authoritarianism.

With that in mind, here's a little background on my analogy: There was considerable fear in the first half of 1997, as the UK was preparing to return Hong Kong to Chinese sovereignty. The fear came from the differences, not only in size, but in systems. The principle used to reassure the people of Hong Kong was "one country, two systems".

By two systems, I'm referring to how SSP works differently from DK, and how I hope its culture is preserved after the merger.

One important difference is that SSP has welcomed Republican posters as guests. We've had several prized posters who've clearly identified themselves as R, who've provided excellent data and analysis -- and overall have participated with honor. (We also have our share of New Democrats and Blue Dogs.)

It is important to me for the SSP section of DK (known as Daily Kos Elections [DKE]) to retain that same welcome. IMO, SSP works because that welcome extends to Democrats and Republicans of all ideologies, as long as they follow the standards of the SSP community.

I am one SSP user. I might be near the middle of the spectrum there. I support more Democrats. I believed it was important to support those Democrats who are less popular here on DK, such as Bart Stupak, Bobby Bright, and Gene Taylor, because they're the best Ds we can realistically hope for from their districts. I think the move to primary Democrats like Scott Matheson was foolish, but wish someone would take out Dan Lipinski. I love those Democrats who represent me here in Oregon, as they represent me well. I believe we are a big party, better because we represent so many different points of view.

I want to be able to root for Democrats like Jon Tester, Ben Nelson, Heath Shuler, Joe Manchin, and Dan Boren here on DK without fear. I do not know if that is possible. Bluntly, one thing that unified many of us as SSP users is that common fear, based on our experiences at DK.

In general, SSP users don't discuss policies, except in the context of how it affects election prospects. I believe some policies unpopular among DK users were the reason Democrats were able to hold the line against the R wave in '10 here on the west coast. I support the fastest possible increases immigration consistent with our security, and want to move up that emerging Democratic majority.

I was discouraged by diaries like this http://www.dailykos.com/story/... where so many Democrats here at DK declared that they would vote for a Republican against the Democratic majority leader.

It's not like I run every time I hear a bit of criticism. I've participated in and even helped moderate mixed forums before. By mixed, I mean a group which ranged from Kucinich Democrats through Michelle Malkin Republicans. Frankly, I was not sad when I needed to sanction R users. But I found it necessary at times to criticize people who are politically more like myself, when their behavior went over the line.

However, I'm not the fastest person to react. I try to take time to formulate the my responses. By the time I've reacted in the past Daily Kos, I feel like most posters have moved on to the next issue -- and have stopped listening.

So I went looking for a smaller community. I tried OpenLeft for a while. I appreciated the quality of the work from the main diarists. But the language and actions from some of the main diarists towards commenters was discouraging.

I eventually found a home of sorts at Swing State Project (SSP), and started to post there regularly in mid-'09.  But now, SSP is being incorporated under the Daily Kos umbrella. Despite the reassurances being given by great moderators like DavidNYC, JamesL, Crisitunity, and Jeffmd, I feel fear.

Perhaps this diary is a passive-aggressive reaction, and I am sorry for that. But given my experiences here at DK, I am gun shy about the coming merger. I do not know if I'll come along for the ride. Back to my Hong Kong analogy, there have been and still are significant problems. However, many have been surprised by the autonomy retained by the Hong Kong "Special Administrative Region," over a decade after the merger.

The current SSP welcomed Republican users, as long as they didn't push issues. They kicked off a number of disruptive Democratic users, when they pushed issues. It is a Democratic site, with a clear bias towards more Democrats. I fear this is about to change. I know some of the Republicans on SSP do not feel comfortable coming along as SSP is brought under the DK umbrella in the coming weeks. I know that some excellent Democrats also do not feel comfortable coming along as well. Some are more, others are less liberal than I. I do not want to come into an echo chamber. While I understand that DK prides itself on being "reality-based," there's a peer pressure in numbers that's often inescapable.

Nevertheless, I am thankful and grateful to DavidNYC, JamesL, Crisiunity, and JeffMD for the great site they created, and the welcome they've given to users like myself. I am glad for the opportunities they now have as part of the DK community. I wish them well in their new ventures.

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I say go for it.
It's how a significant part of this community feels, and either they deal with us and try to convince us, or they don't. It's a fair summary of this community's point of view on DailyKos, and it would be interesting to see how they react to it. I'm sure we'd have your back in the comments.

18- Hamburg, Germany (non-US-citizen)

"I'm sure we'd have your back in the comments"
Sign me up for that if you decide to post tietack.

[ Parent ]
We definitely will have your back in the comments
In that diary you posted about Rehberg a whole bunch of Swingnuts came and commented. I know I for one rec'd every comment by an SSPer on that diary.  

Male, VA-08

[ Parent ]
Back will be had
You certainly have the support of this Bernie Sanders Democrat.

überliberal Democrat, male, OH-12 (college), NJ-09 ("home"), Mets, Jets

[ Parent ]
Put this diary on DK!
You covered all issues of interest to me and, i think, to many other SSP contributors..

I dunno
Pretty much agree with everything you said but if you post this as a diary on the front page I can see it going down faster and harder than a lead ballon. It might be better coming from David. I'm sure that will happen in good time.

Then so be it
I'm actually expecting maybe 5 responses from non-SSP users, mostly impractical "everything will be OK" responses.

But if it does go down like a lead ballon, that will be a marker for what we can expect after the merger.

If it helps pave the way for David to introduce what is really done at SSP, in an effort to maintain the spirit of this community, then I'll call it a success. (...even if I get a dozen troll ratings for it.)


[ Parent ]
I would support whatever you decide


[ Parent ]
I don't mean to sound like a jerk,
but I feel as if you are mixing up a few different concerns. I can't speak on behalf of anyone but myself, but I would think that you will receive nothing but a few mild comments if you say you support someone like Dan Boren, at least on the elections part of the site. If someone responds with comments about why they don't like him and why some other candidate is better and could win, would you mind? Or would you only mind if they respond with comments telling you to go fuck yourself and your quasi-Republican candidate? I would think it's the latter, but that shouldn't be a problem, because I doubt the moderators want a site like that.

What if you posted something about trade or some other policy issue on the main page that a lot of the current Daily Kos regulars didn't like? Do you expect to be banned, or do you worry that that the criticism will not be just severe but personal, nasty, and uncalled for as well? Again, I don't see the moderators letting the latter happen. Why would they?

More than anything, I hope that there's a clear distinction between the election coverage and everything else. I think that would eliminate most of the problems.  

"I have never deliberately given anybody hell. I just tell the truth on the opposition-and they think it's hell."--President Harry Truman. President Obama, are you listening?


From personal experience
I know there's a limit to what moderators can do, especially in the face of overwhelming numbers. I don't discount the possibility that DavidNYC, JamesL, Crisitunity, and JeffMD will be able to transfer our culture to DK.

But I'm not optimistic about it either.


[ Parent ]
What do you mean by
"in the face of overwhelming numbers"? Do you expect several hundred comments bashing you and the moderators being unable to police the thread?

I would expect them to be hyper-vigilant for the first few weeks to set a tone.  

"I have never deliberately given anybody hell. I just tell the truth on the opposition-and they think it's hell."--President Harry Truman. President Obama, are you listening?


[ Parent ]
While there's uncertainty about the changeover
I think reactions to a diary like this may help the SSP leaders modulate what they do better during the transition.

[ Parent ]
Honestly,
what I am most worried about is losing the small community feel. I don't post on a lot of sites, sometimes because of the annoying sign up restrictions and other times because there's little resemblance to an actual discussion. But mostly, I like the fact that we resemble a group of people getting together each morning to talk over coffee rather than the line of people of who shuffle in and out of the store as they buy coffee. (It's not a perfect analogy, but hopefully, it gets the point across.) Some of that is bound to be lost as more people post because of the move, but hopefully, it will be lost with the big races and we can continue to get the small group feel when the specialization aspect of the lower level races comes into play.  

"I have never deliberately given anybody hell. I just tell the truth on the opposition-and they think it's hell."--President Harry Truman. President Obama, are you listening?

[ Parent ]
No, that's a great metaphor
I'm with you there, absolutely.

This is probably my favorite website these days, but I can say with certainty that I'm very unhappy about this move to Daily Kos. And if I get the slightest hint that the merger will do anything to harm that sense of community, the pluralism of political views, the great collective intelligence, and the consistent civility, I'm out. The comments section on Political Wire is about as much of the same old partisan bickering as I can take.

20, center-left independent, Auckland Central resident, MD-05 voter, OR-01 native


[ Parent ]
Please stay on
You really, really should. I have a feeling that there will be a lot of issues at first, but I'm confident that it'll work out in the end, although unfortunately without some of the people that I have enjoyed hearing from here (hopefully many of them will move over to RedRacingHorses and I'll still see them there). Also, the more of us Swingnuts move over to Dkos, the less any of us will feel overwhelmed by sheer numbers there.

Male, VA-08

My main hesitation
about posting this over at Big Orange would be that I don't think that the general populace over there has been informed that this is happening yet. (I searched on "Swing State Project" over there and there's no mention of the switch over there, other than some dual DK/SSP users talking about it in the open thread.) I wouldn't be concerned about the DK users being unsupportive as much as I'd be concerned that their reaction would be "huh?" and since it's meta that doesn't immediately concern them yet, it'd just disappear down the memory hole. You might wait until the changeover has been more thoroughly discussed on the DK front page before bringing this up over there.

This is what I was trying to get at


[ Parent ]
Can you share the schedule for the changeover
or suggest an appropriate time for this diary?

(Your caution makes good sense, thank you.)


[ Parent ]
Well, unfortunately
I don't know the specifics, and David is now on vacation. Let me see if I can get some info from DK management for you.

[ Parent ]
I appreciate the effort
If what I diary on DK on the subject (with reactions) can help you, then it will be a success.

[ Parent ]
with DK4 on the verge of emerging out of beta,
with numerous bugs admittedly unfixed, I doubt the SSP merger is high on their worry list right now.
My guess is a few weeks of bug squashing getting the new site software and features stable and completed.
Then the DK tech people can look at merging the SSP site into DK4.

However, that doesn't mean that DavidNYC couldn't begin his new role as DK's new Political Director right away, that seems like a separate thing. I'm expecting great things from this.


[ Parent ]
I'm back now
There is no set schedule for the transition of SSP. I will, however, start working for DK very shortly. I'll still be writing here, though.

[ Parent ]
Best wishes
on your post at DK.  I would also like to wish the others here the best with their alliance at DK.

I mostly just do redistricting stuff and not all that political stuff.  I am a firm Jacksonian/Jeffersonian democrat so I am sure I fit in there.  


I think not the same about DailyKos and about the change, tietack

and if you give me permission, I would advise you with the best intention to change a little the mod before make public a diary like this in DailyKos. The reason for it, is the next:

If you are as severe with DailyKos, many people what like DailyKos will be pissed cause of your diary, and you will have a lot of severe answers. It is question of diplomacy.

I think many people in DailyKos deserve not this severe point about them. I know awesome people from DailyKos. And they can get displeased too.

Will Daily Kos welcome the full range of Swing State Project users?

I think it is too much for begin. The logical answer to this from some DailyKos user would be: Will some, maybe many SSP users welcome the full range of the new readers what can come from DailyKos? Are you, tietack, ready for it? This can be a trouble too, because it is not right ask for DKos users accept you if you have some trouble accepting new generic DKos users here.

I think the issue is not to import the DK ways to SSP or to export the SSP ways to DK. Finally here will be the people what like the elections and the news about candidates, about primaries... I think all us must understand this site come from DK (I'm wrong?), this site is a "Kos alumni" and the people what run DailyKos and SSP are free for take the way what they want. Surely DailyKos give us SSP, and all us can feel grateful cause of this.

And I think you need to take a more diplomatic way for present your doubts. It is necessary to take a diplomatic way in DailyKos, but with diplomacy I think you can tell what you want, and the people respect it, and sure you find people what agree with you. In a big community, allways they are some people what understand something by the wrong way, and more if you are not a native english speaker (I'm not), but with enough diplomacy you can tell what you whant, and some people can get interested and appreciate your oppinion.

If you go so hard, sure you will find more people what go hard since a different point. And the war is assured.


While I appreciate the call for civility
Susan Gardner, DK Exec Ed, has already committed to work to preserve the SSP community, per the linked comment.

Abgin, I believe that the question of mine that you quoted -- is important. If DK readers respond in a mostly positive fashion, then perhaps we have a chance to preserve the best parts of SSP as a community.

I'm still a sceptic. I do want to be direct about my feelings on SSP joining DK. From some of the responses here and on the main announcement thread, I think a number of people here at SSP share at least some of those feelings.

I think user b.j. with his comments implies that I'm a bit scattered in this draft diary, and I agree. I might clarify a bit, but the diary as is depicts a bit of my own journey in this part of the blogsphere.

Based on Crisitunity's comment to this draft, I think he wants to see the DK community response. And I appreciate the advice he's giving me on timing. I suspect the response could highlight problems that might appear during the transition, and after. At least I hope the response helps them with the conversion.

While I am doubtful about the change, I am grateful to the mods here for the community they have built. So while I still may not join the move, I do want to contribute to their success.


[ Parent ]
I tell you this because

that would give strength to your position and would help you to live in DailyKos. To you and to more people what think like you.

If you think you will be in minority in some, or many of your points surely you are right. This is bad? This is good? Well, I think you can have your place. I would advise you to take the example of GOPvoter here for survive when you are in the minority. I have not fear of give a different oppinion in DailyKos, or here, in SSP, some times. I'm obviously more to the left than you, and for me it is easier a change like this, but I think it would be not very difficult for people like you to survive in DailyKos, if you take the way of GOPvoter here, as example. You have the advantage of know many users here.

Your question can be important, I agree, like the inverse question too. I only would advise you to give to your point a more positive point for write in DailyKos and to take with some patience if someone take bad some of your comments. That would help you. In DailyKos, like in other sites, if you think different, you need to explain with patience and good ways or forms, and later, like everywhere, you can convince or not.

I must tell I know a good number of users of DailyKos what are really kind.


[ Parent ]
Survival is not enough
I think it's important for the SSP/DK combo to continue to welcome Republicans in a fashion similar to today.

That requires commitment from the management (which I believe we have) and at least tolerance from the DK user base (which I suspect may not be possible, even with heavy moderation.)

Otherwise, I'm undecided about rejoining. (I originally became a member of DK in '04, and retain the same username.)

Thinking aloud, perhaps I should sharpen this diary to make that point (how SSP welcomes R guests). Perhaps others here could make that (and other) points more cleanly in their own diaries.


[ Parent ]
The problem is
Dkos has a pretty explicit policy of not allowing Republicans to post, regardless of how respectful/non-ideological they are. I think if we say something about how SSP has always welcomed Republicans, people will just say "Well Daily Kos doesn't" (probably in stronger terms than that). I, of course, don't really give a shit, but the thing is the DK mods may be unwilling to bend their rules at all to accommodate the SSP tradition of allowing respectful Republicans on. This could honestly be a good test of how the merger will work: does SSP get to basically stay the same but go under the Dkos flag, or does SSP become a part of Dkos, where Dkos's rules and regulations supersede ours? I have no doubt DavidNYC, James L, Crisitunity, and Jeffmd will defend our side in this, but I can't tell how it will ultimately work out.

Male, VA-08

[ Parent ]
I haven't seen any comments from any of them so far
on whether they consider it important to welcome respectful Republicans and independents to the new DailyKos page, so I have real doubts about that.

"I'm not a member of any organized political party, I'm a Democrat!"
--  Will Rogers  


[ Parent ]
I think all of us want to accept "Daily Kos users"
But accepting people who refuse to have a logical argument about anything ("because frankly, what's not to love about Alan Grayson" is a typical Kossack line) is just like reading RedState.

And if you are a DailyKos contributor, I am sure you are aware of how many people write in the comments, "I would love to see my representative act like Grayson."

The fact is that people don't like any liberals or liberal-moderates. You have to be of the Sanders/Grayson mold to fit in there. Today, I saw a couple commenters wrote that Tester was a horrible senator for his vote against the Dream Act (he did vote for other progressive priorities) and that we would "have to" support him against Rehberg but only because we "have to." When Markos suggests a primary to Kay Hagan, Mark Warner or any other liberal-moderate, watch the comments section explode with delight.



28, Liberal Democrat, CA-26


[ Parent ]
Well, but they have to know that we're different.
If they just read a FP-story that says 'Hey, we just got a new sub-division, feel free to join the fun', then they'll behave exactly like on DailyKos.

If we fire off a preventive shot across the bows like this, maybe it helps to alert them that we're doing things differently around here (god, that sounds like a white 1960s-Southerner from a civil rights era movie...).

And, yes, there are great people at DailyKos I enjoy conversing with. Seneca Doane for instance, or (don't know if I got his name right) pvlg or something like that. And many more. But they're still a tiny minority compared to all of the people who are just interested in bitching, picking fights and posting cat pictures- 80+% of the site.

DailyKos really isn't an exclusively political community any more. Much less one about elections. They're much more about navel-gazing- which is not exclusively bad, if you're looking at something like fundraising drives for members of the community in need, but mostly  it just results in 90% of posts there being off-topic.  

18- Hamburg, Germany (non-US-citizen)


[ Parent ]
I'd strike the free trade line
Disagrees with the principal of SSP to get into policy.

Besides that, where can I co-sign?

26, Male, Democrat, TX-26


Same here!


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28, New Democrat, Female, TX-03 (hometown CA-26)


[ Parent ]
My reaction
is that:

(1) Your points are well-stated and heartfelt, and the diary is well-written.
(2) I predict some schmuck or other will HR your tip jar. That's become commonplace in the last few months or so.

I'll certainly be there to tip and rec, unless something happens that just plain keeps me offline.

"I'm not a member of any organized political party, I'm a Democrat!"
--  Will Rogers  


I hope the reaction helps the SSP team
Multiple HRs and/or other negative feedback from DK users would suggest a bigger challenge.

In any case, it's just something I feel I have to say. Now that I've put it in electronic print, I feel better about it.

I do appreciate the support I'm seeing here. It'll help me not care about any HRs that this diary might get.


[ Parent ]
Tietack
I understand all the concerns here. However, as Crisitunity noted above, Markos hasn't had the chance to announce this at DK yet, so I would ask you to hold off until he's done so. I also think abgin has some very wise comments about diplomacy. I know you have read them and responded to them, but I think they are worth thinking twice about.

[ Parent ]
Appreciate the update, and willco on timing
FWIW, I think user Pan helped me understand the diplomatic issues a bit better, ref

http://www.swingstateproject.c...

and http://www.swingstateproject.c...

As Pan has noted, I have revised things to be at least somewhat more diplomatic.  


[ Parent ]
One more request
As you can see from the responses, there's some interest among regulars here -- I think they want to know when I post the diary, so they can participate.

If you can tell us a day in advance when Kos will make the announcement, I can warn folks in the daily digest when I plan to publish.


[ Parent ]

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