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AZ-08: Rep. Gabby Giffords Shot by Gunman

by: DavidNYC

Sat Jan 08, 2011 at 1:31 PM EST


UPDATE 3: Huffington Post reports that a surgeon is "very optimistic" on Giffords' chances of recovery. Sadly, at least one patient taken in from the shooting, a child, has died. Altogether, six people have died, including a Giffords aide.

UPDATE 2: Politico says that Giffords' office is saying she is not dead.

UPDATE: NPR is now saying Rep. Giffords has died. Several others as well.

My god:

U.S. Rep. Gabrielle Giffords of Arizona was shot outside a grocery store in Tucson while holding a public event, Arizona Public Media reported Saturday.

Giffords, who was re-elected to her third term in November, was hosting her first "Congress on Your Corner" event at the Safeway in northwest Tucson when a gunman ran up and started shooting, according to Peter Michaels, news director of Arizona Public Media.

At least five other people, including members of her staff, were hurt. Giffords was transported to University Medical Center in Tucson. Her condition was not immediately known.

Giffords was talking to a couple when the man ran up firing indiscriminately, and then ran off, Michaels said. According to other witnesses, the was tackled by a bystander and taken into custody.

This is just beyond, beyond, beyond horrible. All I can do is just hope everyone is okay.
DavidNYC :: AZ-08: Rep. Gabby Giffords Shot by Gunman
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AZ-08: Rep. Gabby Giffords Shot by Gunman | 445 comments
I'm in shock right now
This is just terrible news. Prayers that she pulls through.

24, male, African-American, CA-24, Democrat. Chair of the SSP Black Caucus.
This is horrible
Hopefully she and the others shot come out alive and as in good of condition as you can be from being shot...

20, male, independent, WI-07.
Please, by G-d, let her be alright!


Ad hoc, ad loc and quid pro quo!
So little time, so much to know!
What a devastating loss this would be for America
We're all rooting for you Gabby!

Some Dude, 19, Democrat, NH-02 (residence), MA-08 (college)
God I hope it's just a random thing
not a politically motived thing, because if it is, this is approaching Civil War territory

Horrible as this is
Let's try to avoid speculation until we learn more.
[ Parent ]
Honestly
I don't know which scenario would be worse. Neither random violence or politically motivated violence testify well for the condition of our country.

Hoping for good news regarding all of these folks. This is just terrible.  

Independent Socialist & Chair of SSP Cranky Indianian Hoosier Caucus, IN-09

[ Parent ]
CNN
Just turned on CNN. Reports are that Giffords was shot point blank in the head. She was taken on a Life Flight Helecopter. There were at least a couple of fatalities. just terrible.

"Where free Unions and collective bargaining is forbidden, freedom is lost." - Ronald Reagan
[ Parent ]
It's very frightening


24, male, African-American, CA-24, Democrat. Chair of the SSP Black Caucus.
[ Parent ]
Looks political
This was the third violent event involving Giffords.  After she voted for Obamacare, the door to her office in Arizona was shattered.  During a political rally in August, a gunman took out a pistol and decided not to shoot.  Then this.

Since Thursday, at least three mail bombs were sent to former Arizona Governor Janet Napolitano.

Giffords' Republican opponent held a rally were people took gun shots at a terget of Gabby Giffords.  "Target Gabby Giffords."  The candidate looks like an accessory to at least six murders.  

Ironically, Giffords is a Blue Dog and did not oppose SB 70.

Why is at OK to have target practice against a political opponent but not OK for a congressman to yell "liar."  We have seriously warped priorities here.  For that matter that dude with the automatic weapon at the Obama rally should have been put away for at least six months.  The legacy of that laxness was paid, in part, today.

[ Parent ]
hmm
I read that the gunman walked up behind her and fired when the gun was about a foot from her head, so it looks like an assassination attempt as opposed to some psycho just randomly shooting the place up. It might have been some sort of personal grudge but it looks political.

Needless to say I hope she and the other wounded people recover.

41, Ind, CA-05

[ Parent ]
Minor correction
She did oppose S.B. 1070, criticizing both the bill and the Obama administration for not doing enough to secure the border and promote legal immigration on work visas.

20, center-left independent, Auckland Central resident, MD-05 voter, OR-01 native
[ Parent ]
I am so disgusted
I hope this wasn't politically motivated for the same reasons above. Our country is better than this.

22, male, VA-10
Oh my dear Lord
My prayers are with Giffords and her family. This is just sickening.

20, CD MA-03/NH-01/MA-08
Now CNN says 12 people shot.
Horrifying. :(
Well I'm glad I randomly woke up at 5am
I got some productivity out of me.  My sentiments to everyone involved to please be alright.
I was
about to go back to sleep for a bit (it's Pacific time over here) and this happpened.  Now my stomach hurts and I'm apprehensive as all hell to know if she's going to be physically alright.

Ad hoc, ad loc and quid pro quo!
So little time, so much to know!
[ Parent ]
Watch her recover and become Senator
Fuck that guy.  Make sure he doesnt commit suicide and throw the book at him.
[ Parent ]
The gunman is in custody.
http://www.foxnews.com/politic...

"Where free Unions and collective bargaining is forbidden, freedom is lost." - Ronald Reagan
This is just horrible
Rep. Giffords is my favorite House member.

I really hope she pulls through. Can't believe it.

She was on Palin's fucking target list. If this has anything to do with that...

20, center-left independent, Auckland Central resident, MD-05 voter, OR-01 native

She's on my list for Presidential material
::sigh::
[ Parent ]
NPR just reported...
Rep. Giffords has passed away.

Goddammit, she was going to be the first woman President of the United States. I was just saying a few hours ago that if I were to have any member of Congress represent me, it would have been her.

This is just not real.

20, center-left independent, Auckland Central resident, MD-05 voter, OR-01 native

[ Parent ]
She's my favorite too!


My blog
Twitter
Scribd
28, New Democrat, Female, TX-03 (hometown CA-26)
[ Parent ]
Updates
Here's a Huffingfton Post link that seems to be gathering updates from different sites.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/...

Hopefully everyone is alright.

Per Land of Enchantment...
here, this was one of the events Jesse Kelly held during the election cycle.


I'm not speculating just yet, but the Tuscon Citizen report that she was shot in the head at point-blank range makes it sound like this was a targeted assassination attempt.

Oh God, this is fucking horrible.

That was seriously one of his events?
That reads like an instigation to violence. Learn some goddamn punctuation, Jesse Kelly.

Ugh, I feel sick. This cannot be happening.

20, center-left independent, Auckland Central resident, MD-05 voter, OR-01 native

[ Parent ]
What a sickening thing to say
We don't know the motive yet, but comments like that on candidate's websites are very dangerous and can lead to tragedy.

24, male, African-American, CA-24, Democrat. Chair of the SSP Black Caucus.
[ Parent ]
That's not a comment
That's an item off of the candidate's event feed.


Independent Socialist & Chair of SSP Cranky Indianian Hoosier Caucus, IN-09
[ Parent ]
well he wont be winning a special election
or hopefully any election then.
[ Parent ]
Horrifying
Gabby was medi-vaced to University Medical Center. I was at the university around 11am this morning and saw 2 or 3 helicopters flying over to UMC. She was probably on one of them. Unbelievable. Just unbelievable.

22, Democrat, AZ-01
Peace. Love. Gabby.
I am so sorry for your loss, your district's loss, and your state's loss.


20, center-left independent, Auckland Central resident, MD-05 voter, OR-01 native
[ Parent ]
NPR says she's dead
Absolutely horrifying.

Some Dude, 19, Democrat, NH-02 (residence), MA-08 (college)
I feel terrible right now
Disbelief.

24, male, African-American, CA-24, Democrat. Chair of the SSP Black Caucus.
[ Parent ]
Link
http://www.npr.org/2011/01/08/...

Young shooter in late teens/early twenties.

RIP Gabby. We'll miss you so much

Some Dude, 19, Democrat, NH-02 (residence), MA-08 (college)

[ Parent ]
Six others dead
aswell, This is just horrible.

20, male, independent, WI-07.
[ Parent ]
Can't believe it
The first assassination of a sitting member of Congress since then-Rep. Leo Ryan was killed during the Jonestown massacre and one of the worst mass shootings on U.S. soil in recent memory as well (the worst since Fort Hood, I believe).

20, center-left independent, Auckland Central resident, MD-05 voter, OR-01 native
[ Parent ]
Oh no
This is horrible. I'm praying for her. She's one of my favorite members of Congress. This is just horrible, I'm in shock. Please be ok.  

Proud member of the Indiana Democratic Party from IN-9.  
*cries*
Noooooo!!!!

Ad hoc, ad loc and quid pro quo!
So little time, so much to know!
I
honestly thought she'd be the first female President. RIP.  

Proud member of the Indiana Democratic Party from IN-9.  
RIP Rep. Giffords and all the innocent victims
My thoughts go out to the families affected by this tragedy.  
RIP to everyone
I have family in Tucson and they always spoke very well of Giffords.  AZ-08 was very lucky to have such a great representative.

21, male, CA-15 (home and voting there), LA-2 (college)


We have...
At least one SSPer from AZ-08. I think he/she participated in Rep. Giffords's reelection campaign last year, too.

20, center-left independent, Auckland Central resident, MD-05 voter, OR-01 native
[ Parent ]
Horrible
Hopefully the NPR reports turn out to be false.

Now I'm wishing she hadn't won reelection. This probably wouldn't have happened.  

CNN confirmed it
I'm going to throw up

22, Democrat, AZ-01
Peace. Love. Gabby.
[ Parent ]
So has
MSNBC and fox  

TX-13,22,Dem
[ Parent ]
CNN
just confirmed Giffords and 6 others deaths.

Out of all the AZ politicos, Giffords was my favorite. R.I.P

16, Male, Democrat, CA-42/sometimes CA-32.

This is so horrible!!!
 Giffords was a hardworking, honest and smart congresswoman. She was only 40 also. I definitely saw her as a possible senate candidate or even presidential. She was not even a far left congresswoman so the right did not think she was the worst Democrat in the world.

I think Wally Herger also should have a guilty conscience. He praised right wing terrorism. He may have thought the person was just talking and not planning to do anything. Still, this is what right wing terrorism brings...

for more election analysis, visit  http://frogandturtle.blogspot....




17, CA-06,  

[ Parent ]
The fuck . .
just . . . no. It's not fair. She was the best House voice regarding NASA and Space. I want to know why this man did it, and anyone who helped incentive this goes with him. This was not a backbencher, this was a great worker. And those Jesse Kelly pics unthread, I hope he's held accountable and changes his outlook on life.

26, Male, Democrat, TX-26
Just heard on Fox News that one of the fatalities was a child
I still cannot believe this. You know things like this can happen, but it still takes you by surprise when they actually do. That gunman is burn in hell evil.

24, male, African-American, CA-24, Democrat. Chair of the SSP Black Caucus.
Seriously?
I hope they throw away the key. The bastard.

I'm just sick over this. I can't believe it. The families involved must be hurting so badly right now.

20, center-left independent, Auckland Central resident, MD-05 voter, OR-01 native

[ Parent ]
This gunman is
beyond evil.  The 7th level of hell is not sufficient punishment!

Ad hoc, ad loc and quid pro quo!
So little time, so much to know!
[ Parent ]
From an eye-witness it was a 10 year old boy
I'm sick to my stomach.  
[ Parent ]
Doesn't feel like America, does it?
I hope the mask comes off the sick bastard who did this soon.

20, center-left independent, Auckland Central resident, MD-05 voter, OR-01 native
[ Parent ]
Horrible
Sick. Sick. It's just not right.  

Proud member of the Indiana Democratic Party from IN-9.  
[ Parent ]
Terrible
No words at can describe how awful this is.

24, male, African-American, CA-24, Democrat. Chair of the SSP Black Caucus.
[ Parent ]
I am pissed.


Independent Socialist & Chair of SSP Cranky Indianian Hoosier Caucus, IN-09
*falls to ground, crying*
No, not her, not anyone!  Noooo!

Ad hoc, ad loc and quid pro quo!
So little time, so much to know!
Godammnit.
We were just talking about her as a future senator/presidential candidate earlier today.

In a New York minute...

She may
not be dead  

TX-13,22,Dem
MSNBC is saying she is still alive


TX-13,22,Dem
[ Parent ]
They just...
Revised their report.

She's gone.

20, center-left independent, Auckland Central resident, MD-05 voter, OR-01 native

[ Parent ]
Just
heard someone on MSNBC saying she's still alive.  

Proud member of the Indiana Democratic Party from IN-9.  
It is some
sherrif  

TX-13,22,Dem
[ Parent ]
Oh thank God
Her office is saying she's still alive, according to Politico.

There's some hope.

20, center-left independent, Auckland Central resident, MD-05 voter, OR-01 native

Let's send out our prayers
 I am not religious but please let the reports saying she is alive be true! Please be reports that are just updated, not reports from an hour ago! Please live Giffords!!! I know you can do it! You are possibly coming back from the brink of death! Just push forward Giffords, stay alive for your constituents, stay alive for the people of Arizona, stay alive to see yourself in the Oval Office in 2024!  

for more election analysis, visit  http://frogandturtle.blogspot....




17, CA-06,  

[ Parent ]
Let's avoid speculation best as we can guys
Just pray for her family  
HEr office
now says she still alive  

TX-13,22,Dem
The situation is obviously chaotic
I'd caution that these reports could go in either direction for some time yet. Let's hope for the best and not jump on board with any reports until they're confirmed.  

Independent Socialist & Chair of SSP Cranky Indianian Hoosier Caucus, IN-09
Good idea.


20, center-left independent, Auckland Central resident, MD-05 voter, OR-01 native
[ Parent ]
On a hopeful note
Maybe this will bring about more cooperation between the parties.  We literally have people being murdered now.

This country just got robbed.

Hospital
spokesperson says she's still alive, in surgery. Please pull through.  

Proud member of the Indiana Democratic Party from IN-9.  
Per MSNBC


Proud member of the Indiana Democratic Party from IN-9.  
[ Parent ]
The hosiptal now says
she is alive but critical  

TX-13,22,Dem
AP
says a Giffords aide has now died.  

Proud member of the Indiana Democratic Party from IN-9.  
Link or on TV?
nt

28, Liberal Democrat, CA-26
[ Parent ]
MSNBC (nt)


23, male, Democrat, IA-02 (previously CA-26, PA-06, CA-06)
[ Parent ]
Link or on TV?
nt

28, Liberal Democrat, CA-26
[ Parent ]
Heard
it on MSNBC. I'll try and find a link.  

Proud member of the Indiana Democratic Party from IN-9.  
[ Parent ]
Not seeing any confirmation.

[ Parent ]
This
is disgusting but this TMZ link mentions the AP confirming the aides death. Sorry about the link. They've said it multiple times on MSNBC.
http://www.tmz.com/2011/01/08/...

Proud member of the Indiana Democratic Party from IN-9.  
[ Parent ]
There
are just thousands of links focusing on the Congresswoman and its hard to find one about the aide. I know TMZ isn't a good source but it mentions the AP.  

Proud member of the Indiana Democratic Party from IN-9.  
[ Parent ]
here we are
[ Parent ]
I guess I can just quote it!
Officials said one victim died soon after the attack, and others were taken to a nearby hospital. They identified the victim as an aide to the congresswoman.

[ Parent ]
No more
No more "Second Amendment remedies". No more "reloading". No more "target lists". No more shooting events to "stop" or "take out" public officials. Not in America - hopefully not anywhere, preferably not anywhere, but definitely not in America.

RIP. My thoughts go out to family, friends, and the rest of Rep. Giffords's staff.

20, center-left independent, Auckland Central resident, MD-05 voter, OR-01 native

[ Parent ]
Last tweet from Giffords' account
http://twitter.com/#!/Rep_Giff...

"My 1st Congress on Your Corner starts now. Please stop by to let me know what is on your mind or tweet me later."

24, male, African-American, CA-24, Democrat. Chair of the SSP Black Caucus.

...What the holy fuck.
no further comment.

party: Democratic, ideology: moderate, district: CT-01
Completely whacked out
Seriously WTF?  It's so freakin disappointing that crap like this still happens in the U.S.A. in the 21st century.  When was the last time a Representative was assassinated?  
Jonestown massacre
Then-Rep. Leo Ryan, a California Democrat, was shot on the tarmac while attempting to help dissidents flee the country.

20, center-left independent, Auckland Central resident, MD-05 voter, OR-01 native
[ Parent ]
The wikpedia info on the subject
(so with grain of salt) says he was the only Congressperson to die in the line of duty.
[ Parent ]
along with Rep. Ryan was
   a young staff member who was shot but survived the massacre, Jackie Speier. She is now the congressmember for that district. Today's events must bring back bad memories for her especially, though any member of Congress has to feel less safe today than yesterday. This is terrible and shocking.

52, male, disgruntled Democrat, CA-28
[ Parent ]
1978
Jonestown

Proud member of the Indiana Democratic Party from IN-9.  
[ Parent ]
Holy fuck.
I am in shock.

Follow the elections in Georgia at the 2010 Georgia Race Tracker.
MSNBC
says a federal judge also shot, possibly killed.  

Proud member of the Indiana Democratic Party from IN-9.  
paging Joe Miller
You happy now?

party: Democratic, ideology: moderate, district: CT-01
[ Parent ]
And Sarah Palin...
Is this what "targeting" results in?

Seriously, I'm not blaming all Republicans for this. I have many good Republican friends and family here, and they would NEVER condone such horrifying violent acts as this.

However, there's no doubt in my mind that all the heated, radical rhetoric from the teabaggers has certainly fueled this fire for violence in this country. I just hope The Secret Service is stepping up security for President Obama, and that Harry Reid and Shelley Berkley are getting good security here in Nevada.

Yes, Virginia, there ARE progressives in Nevada!
24, gay male, Democrat, NV-03 (or 04?)

[ Parent ]
Was he in the crowd?
This is just the weirdest fucking thing. It's so awful.

20, center-left independent, Auckland Central resident, MD-05 voter, OR-01 native
[ Parent ]
link
http://usabreakingnews.wordpre...

Proud member of the Indiana Democratic Party from IN-9.  
[ Parent ]
Judge John Roll
He is dead, MSNBC is reporting.

20, center-left independent, Auckland Central resident, MD-05 voter, OR-01 native
[ Parent ]
So
they can't remove Giffords at the ballot box so they remove her at the bullet box. Wonderful. Our country is seriously fucked if people think the only way to air their grievances is with a gun.  

19, Male, Independent, CA-12
It's been a long time since I've been this angry.
When Teddy Roosevelt was shot in the chest by an assassin, he went on to give a speech with a fresh bullet wound, showed the crowd the wound, and said "It takes more than this to stop a Bull Moose." Gabrielle Giffords is alive in the hospital. It takes more than an assassin's bullet to stop a good Democrat, you sorry rat bastards.

34, WM, Democrat, FL-11
Not the Roosevelt quote I had in mind
I'm thinking more of his defiant cry at the 1912 Progressive Party convention, "We stand at Armageddon and we battle for the Lord".

Perhaps we don't battle for the Lord, but it seems at this point what we are battling for, is no longer just civility, but sanity and the preservation of a peaceable system of republican democracy.  

Independent Socialist & Chair of SSP Cranky Indianian Hoosier Caucus, IN-09

[ Parent ]
MSNBC
just claimed she may have been talking when she was brought into the hospital. That would be a VERY good sign.  

Proud member of the Indiana Democratic Party from IN-9.  
Oh God that would be a great sign
That would indicate low probability of brain damage and a very good chance for survival.

20, center-left independent, Auckland Central resident, MD-05 voter, OR-01 native
[ Parent ]
That is a good sign.
The fact that there were conflicting reports about her fate (not to mention the fact that she was shot in the head) did not sound promising.

Follow the elections in Georgia at the 2010 Georgia Race Tracker.
[ Parent ]
Here's hoping
Sounds like she's a strong person and fighting to stay alive.

24, male, African-American, CA-24, Democrat. Chair of the SSP Black Caucus.
[ Parent ]
Oh, I hope it's true...
I hope she makes it. Putting all the political issues aside, I hope she survives this.

Yes, Virginia, there ARE progressives in Nevada!
24, gay male, Democrat, NV-03 (or 04?)
[ Parent ]
Rip to everyone,
and very good congresswoman in particular
Do you have new information that she's dead?
The latest is that she's alive.

34, WM, Democrat, FL-11
[ Parent ]
No, just what everyone (like CNN) mentioned
If she is alive - great news..
[ Parent ]
This is
Abso-f*cking-loutely horrible. Hope she pulls through. :-(

50, straight white male, Democrat(Dan Boren/Gene Taylor 2012!), AL-7(born in AL-5)
I lose my words

uh.
The Federal Judge
According to a Twitter Post the Federal Judge that was shot was John Rolle. From Judgepedia

http://judgepedia.org/index.ph...


Judge Roll in 2009, faced death threats after presiding over a $32 million civil-rights lawsuit. The lawsuit was filed by illegal immigrants against an Arizona rancher. After Judge Roll ruled the case would be certified, threats came from talk-radio shows which fueled controversy and spurred audiences into making threats against the judge[2].

The threats materialized after one show, Judge Roll's name logged more than 200 phone calls as some callers threatened the judge and his family[2].

This resulted in the judge and his wife were under a protection detail for one month as Judge Roll was given twenty four hours a day, seven days a week security by the US Marshals Service. An US Attorney's investigation ruled that four men were identified as threat makers, but no charges were filed[2].

In a July 9, 2009 interview with the Arizona Republic, Judge Roll described the time under high security as "unnerving and invasive. . . . By its nature it has to be," Roll said. Roll also said, "It (the security) was handled very professionally by the Marshals Service."[2]

At the end of the month, Roll said four key men had been identified as threat makers[2].



"Where free Unions and collective bargaining is forbidden, freedom is lost." - Ronald Reagan
Judge John Roll
He is the Chief Judge of the AZ Federal District Court.

Ad hoc, ad loc and quid pro quo!
So little time, so much to know!
[ Parent ]
Chief Judge Roll has died, according to Huffpost.
G-d rest his honorable and courageous soul.

Ad hoc, ad loc and quid pro quo!
So little time, so much to know!
[ Parent ]
So whoever bastard this was was after him too.
Also, I hear that one of the people shot was a child.  Add Complete Monster to the list of charges.

party: Democratic, ideology: moderate, district: CT-01
[ Parent ]
We love you Gabby!
I'm praying for a quick and complete recovery.  This country needs you!!!

40, male, Democrat, NC-04
As per MSNBC
The deputy city manager of Tucson is claiming doctors expect Rep. Giffords to survive. An Arizona state senator has claimed her office has been notified Giffords is out of surgery and is responding to commands, according to Brian Stelter's Twitter feed.

20, center-left independent, Auckland Central resident, MD-05 voter, OR-01 native
Thank goodness


Independent Socialist & Chair of SSP Cranky Indianian Hoosier Caucus, IN-09
[ Parent ]
Hearing some positive news
The Deputy Mayor of Tucson says Giffords is expected to pull through:

https://twitter.com/#!/Hotline...


21, male, CA-15 (home and voting there), LA-2 (college)


So the next question would be:
How much of a recovery is expected?  Is she looking at any brain damage?

Follow the elections in Georgia at the 2010 Georgia Race Tracker.
[ Parent ]
She's responsive, apparently...
Which is a very good sign. But I agree that is a huge question mark.

20, center-left independent, Auckland Central resident, MD-05 voter, OR-01 native
[ Parent ]
We know now
that the bullet went through part of her brain.

34, WM, Democrat, FL-11
[ Parent ]
Not to be insensitive here
the reports are saying that the bullet passed through the Congresswoman's head, so thankfully it was not lodged in there, or her chances would be even slimmer. Still, there's really no speculation at this point how bad the damage is, but if I were her I'd rather have a bullet go through me than be lodged in me for the rest of my life.
[ Parent ]
Today is a dark day in American history.

*Hugs everyone here.*
Thank you all for being her to help me get through this.  Now, I pray from the deepest corners of my heard for the Congresswoman, the deceased, and all of their friends and family.  Gabby's a fighter, I pray that she pulls through this and is soon rejoined with her kids and husband and all other family ASAP.

Ad hoc, ad loc and quid pro quo!
So little time, so much to know!
She's out of surgery
and doctor's are optimistic about her recovery chances.  
The 9 year old child has died though
Very saddening. Death is too good for this bastard gunman.  
[ Parent ]
The chief surgeon says that the neurosurgeons
are finished with Giffords, and they're optimistic about her recovery.

The child died.  Motherfucker.

That's just vile.
It's horrifying enough that this perverted beast shot Rep. Gibbords and killed Judge Roll... But he also killed a CHILD??!! May that sick bastard rot in hell!

Yes, Virginia, there ARE progressives in Nevada!
24, gay male, Democrat, NV-03 (or 04?)
[ Parent ]
Christ above
My brother came running into my room telling me a congresswoman was shot. It's all over news here. Just absolute shock. Thoughts and prayers with Giffords and the other victims.

Eternal rest grant unto them O Lord and may perpetual light shine upon them. May they rest in peace.

Fuck
n/t

Male, VA-08
I'm hearing that SarahPAC's Take Back The 20 site is no longer accessible
That is, the website that featured the delightful crosshair map is now nowhere to be found.

I don't really give a damn if this is offtopic.

Independent Socialist & Chair of SSP Cranky Indianian Hoosier Caucus, IN-09

Seriously, the FBI should investigate...
Palin and her PAC. They egged on the violence with that map and her rhetoric. Without a doubt, we all have free speech rights. No one should take that away from any of us, not even Palin. Still, we all need to be wise in our words. And none of us should resort to the bile that's constantly spewed out of Sarah Palin's Twitter page.

Yes, Virginia, there ARE progressives in Nevada!
24, gay male, Democrat, NV-03 (or 04?)
[ Parent ]
What did Ari Fleischer say?
People need to be careful about what they say and do.
[ Parent ]
Whether or not this kid this because of the tea party
the tea party and Palin have made light of assassinations with this. This is serious shit and they're playing around with fire.

People don't "reload" to go vote Sarah, they "reload" when they want to take lives.  

[ Parent ]
lol
Image and video hosting by TinyPic

My blog
Twitter
Scribd
28, New Democrat, Female, TX-03 (hometown CA-26)
[ Parent ]
Quite interesting timing, isn't it?


Independent Socialist & Chair of SSP Cranky Indianian Hoosier Caucus, IN-09
[ Parent ]
Indeed.
I had woken up from a scary dream that "the big one" had hit SoCal, though the quake was not much bigger than Northridge and only LAX was really hard-hit. I thought that the nightmare was over until my boyfriend came into the bedroom and told me the news.

My blog
Twitter
Scribd
28, New Democrat, Female, TX-03 (hometown CA-26)
[ Parent ]
The whois for the site still reveals the truth
Registrant:
  Sarah PAC
  P.O. Box 7711
  Arlington, Virginia 22207
  United States

  Registered through: GoDaddy.com, Inc. (http://www.godaddy.com)
  Domain Name: TAKEBACKTHE20.COM
     Created on: 19-Jul-10
     Expires on: 19-Jul-11
     Last Updated on: 27-Dec-10


[ Parent ]
Apparently, the shooter is a North American Union conspiracy theorist
He has a Youtube page and posted a very odd video rambling about a new currency and such.

24, male, African-American, CA-24, Democrat. Chair of the SSP Black Caucus.
It figures
Another anti-government, conspiracy-addled loon, just like that wacko who flew his plane into the IRS building in Texas.

20, center-left independent, Auckland Central resident, MD-05 voter, OR-01 native
[ Parent ]
I would say more Anarchist
This is a video he favorited.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...

Again, all this is preliminary speculation.

[ Parent ]
Nah
In his own words. Anti-government nut. Stuff now about people not understanding or reading the Constitution.
[ Parent ]
OKC
Sounds more like Tim McVeigh.  

41, Ind, CA-05
[ Parent ]
This liberal girl says she was a classmate of his during high school.
Apparently, he met Giffords earlier back in 2007.

http://twitter.com/caitieparker

[ Parent ]
Sounds like he was a left-wing radical in high school prior to dropping out
I wonder if he was on the bandwagon of left-wing anarchists on the Paulist fringe (starting in 2007). I've always said the political spectrum is circular.

20, center-left independent, Auckland Central resident, MD-05 voter, OR-01 native
[ Parent ]
Anarchism and Anti-Government beliefs sound
very similar.  

19, Self Appointed Chair of the SSP Gay Caucus (I claimed it first :p), male, Dem, IN-09 (College IN-09) (Raised IL-03, IL-09)
[ Parent ]
Their isn't an anarchist in the world
who fanatically supports the gold standard...
[ Parent ]
This is the alleged shooter's Youtube account.
Rails against the government and property owners. Likes Mein Kamph and the Communist Manifesto.

http://www.youtube.com/user/Cl...

FOX just had a quote
With him specifically citing "illiteracy" in the "8th District". So sad, so predictable.
[ Parent ]
Does she have any children herself?


Follow the elections in Georgia at the 2010 Georgia Race Tracker.
No, two step-children.

[ Parent ]
No
She has step-children but none of her own.  

28, Male, Democrat VA-08  
[ Parent ]
Well, there is an old russian saying
that if anyone was presumed dead, but survived he/she will live long happy life. That's exactly what i hope will happen with representative Giffords...))))
I like that saying


24, male, African-American, CA-24, Democrat. Chair of the SSP Black Caucus.
[ Parent ]
Worked for Reagan
Sorta.
[ Parent ]
James Brady?
Don't you mean James Brady instead?
[ Parent ]
Reagan lived to 93
But obviously he had health problems.
[ Parent ]
Same here.


My blog
Twitter
Scribd
28, New Democrat, Female, TX-03 (hometown CA-26)
[ Parent ]
Here's hoping that's the case <n/t>

[ Parent ]
Didn't Charles Sumner go on to have a long, productive career in the Senate,
while the guy who caned him died shortly thereafter?

party: Democratic, ideology: moderate, district: CT-01
[ Parent ]
That's correct
Preston Brooks died the next year of a respiratory infection, while Sumner became the main backer of much of the civil rights legislation passed during the reconstruction era.  

28, Unenrolled, MA-08
[ Parent ]
Pwned
n/t

party: Democratic, ideology: moderate, district: CT-01
[ Parent ]
Heartwarming.
I pray that it is what happens.

Ad hoc, ad loc and quid pro quo!
So little time, so much to know!
[ Parent ]
Looking for hope
MSNBC has a headline: "Surgeon: Optimistic for her recovery"
followup from TPM
Peter Rhee of the University of Arizona Medical Center just gave a press conference saying that Rep. Gabriel Giffords is in critical condition, but he is "very optimistic" about her recovery.

[ Parent ]
That's a good sign


Follow the elections in Georgia at the 2010 Georgia Race Tracker.
[ Parent ]
Question about the legalities
Would this be considered a federal crime due to the involvement of a sitting member of Congress, a Congressional aid, and a federal judge as victims?

Follow the elections in Georgia at the 2010 Georgia Race Tracker.
Yes, the FBI is taking the lead in the investigation.

[ Parent ]
Attempting to assassinate
a member of Congress or of the executive branch is a federal crime.
[ Parent ]
Good question
When Kennedy was assassinated can you believe murdering the president wasn't a federal crime! It is now. But I don't know about members of Congress.
[ Parent ]
if Judge Roll is dead, then yes, absolutely
even not, she was shot, it's a federal crime.  
[ Parent ]
As far as I'm concerned...
It was an act of domestic terrorism.

20, center-left independent, Auckland Central resident, MD-05 voter, OR-01 native
[ Parent ]
Apparently, the suspect agrees
On the FP on MSNBC: "You could call me a terrorist".
[ Parent ]
I'd prefer to call him a psuedo-intellectual prick
But I guess that term and 'terrorist' aren't mutually exclusive.  

Independent Socialist & Chair of SSP Cranky Indianian Hoosier Caucus, IN-09
[ Parent ]
I usually do not
 Blog on current political events as they happen but I just wrote a blog post summing up the current situation with Giffords and the right wing comments, if you are interested in reading it...

http://frogandturtle.blogspot....

for more election analysis, visit  http://frogandturtle.blogspot....




17, CA-06,  

What a horrible incident!
I really hope Giffords is okay.

My blog
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28, New Democrat, Female, TX-03 (hometown CA-26)
The shooter is still alive.
Remember that Jared Lee Loughner is still alive.  Whatever speculation we can make about this guy, the police can brush aside by questioning Loughner himself.
That's true
 I think we need to know why he did it so we can learn how to prevent shootings like this from happening.  

for more election analysis, visit  http://frogandturtle.blogspot....




17, CA-06,  

[ Parent ]
Fortunately
he seems like the kind of crazy guy who just LOVES to talk. So we should be able to figure out why the fuck he did this relatively quickly.

Male, VA-08
[ Parent ]
At the risk of sounding insensitive...
And I do want to note, of course, that the health of Rep. Giffords and the safety of her family is paramount here - I hope she is able to remain in office and serve out her term.

People cannot be allowed to think the way to oust politicians whom they couldn't defeat in regularly scheduled elections is by shooting them. This violent rhetoric has consequences, and it's the blood in the streets of Tucson today.

Giffords is one of the best-liked members of Congress among her peers, one of the best members at constituency service, and one of the nicest members according to many accounts. May it continue. Ideas are bulletproof.

20, center-left independent, Auckland Central resident, MD-05 voter, OR-01 native

I fully understand and agree with what your post


24, male, African-American, CA-24, Democrat. Chair of the SSP Black Caucus.
[ Parent ]
That V for Vendetta reference is priceless here.
You--and anyone else--should post that as a comment on your own blogs or something.

party: Democratic, ideology: moderate, district: CT-01
[ Parent ]
Sick
When I heard about this, today, and it was assumed she'd already passed I literally nearly became ill.  I'm so sad that I'm sick.  I was just discussing Arizona politics with someone the other day joking about how crazy things have become, down there.

Whether this turns out to be planned or random, this is a moment to say that words have consequences; words can have serious, serious consequences.  This has got to stop.

What
happens if she lives but with brain damage? Does she serve out her term? I know some people who sustain gunshots to the head become mentally disabled after. If this was the case I would assume she'd resign or if she wasn't in the state then she would be removed, see Stenny Hoyer's predecessor. I pray that shes 100% ok and don't want to sound negative but it is something to think about. The fact she was communicating while going into the hospital is a great sign.  

Proud member of the Indiana Democratic Party from IN-9.  
Tim Johnson
He had a stroke a few years ago and he's still serving. It probably isn't the same thing but it's a major brain injury.

41, Ind, CA-05
[ Parent ]
No, not really
It's different. My grandfather had several strokes. He did lose it eventually but he was ok for years after his first couple.  

Proud member of the Indiana Democratic Party from IN-9.  
[ Parent ]
Is this really the time?
You may not want to "sound negative" but developing a contingency plan in case someone who was just shot becomes incapacitated is a bit negative, no?
[ Parent ]
Thanks
Having experienced my own personal tragedy in the last few months, I know this isn't the time.  Gabby's not out of the woods by any means.  

40, male, Democrat, NC-04
[ Parent ]
Yeah
I suppose so. Honestly the way I cope with stress is making a plan for all the possibilities. I did the same thing when a family member was dying of cancer. I think it helps me. But yes I can see how it can be taken offensively. Sorry, it was not my intent.  

Proud member of the Indiana Democratic Party from IN-9.  
[ Parent ]
Its cool
If i thought you were intentional I probably would have exploded.  

I know many people deal with such situations by planning for the worst scenario; it takes one out of the precise moment at hand and lets them focus on something beyond the current situation.

We're all good people, as this thread proves.

[ Parent ]
Good explanation
In mid-October, my wife was involved in a serious horse accident...the horse knocked her off her feet and then trampled on her.  She broke her left tibia (actually there were over 10 fractures to the tibia), torn MCL, and a slight separation to the skull.  The leg is healing and should be able to walk again by mid March.  The head injury is what really freaks me out...her short-term memory is impaired, has ringing in the ears, and has lost some of her reasoning skills.  She won't be able to work until September at the earliest.

I hope she and her family can concentrate on her recovery.  If it wasn't for my friends and family, I would be totally lost right now, and I can only imagine that Gabby's husband is feeling the same thing.

40, male, Democrat, NC-04

[ Parent ]
Yeah
I can't imagine what he is going through. Plus he is scheduled to start a new mission soon if I remember correctly.  

Proud member of the Indiana Democratic Party from IN-9.  
[ Parent ]
Yeah
Actually Mark Kelly is scheduled to go up into space in March and is currently training full time. He's almost surely going to have to give up his spot on the shuttle, and with it, likely his last chance to go up into space before the current space shuttle program is phased out.

22, Democrat, AZ-01
Peace. Love. Gabby.
[ Parent ]
I imagine Kelly doesn't care about the space shuttle program right now
I've had to put my own life on hold to take care of my wife...I had other plans, but they somewhat pale in comparison.  I've been married for 15+ years and taking care of my wife is an honor.   From what I know about Kelly, he will feel the same way.

40, male, Democrat, NC-04
[ Parent ]
I'm sure that's exactly how he feels


22, Democrat, AZ-01
Peace. Love. Gabby.
[ Parent ]
Absolutely
As a widower who never got a chance to take care of my Nancy before she died (suddenly), it's the right decision. Focus on her. I gather from other widowed that any other choice would bring regrets for the remainder of one's life.

The space shuttle or anything else is trivial in comparison.

[ Parent ]
I heard a story
About a man who was, I believe, a professor who quit his job to care full time for his wife who had Alzheimer's. A colleague tried to talk him out of it saying, "Come on, Bob, she doesn't even know who you are!"  To which he replied, "That doesn't matter.  I know who she is."

28, Unenrolled, MA-08
[ Parent ]
In all reality
This is probably the one place where we historically move too fast onto the political ramifications of things.  And with her clearly not dead and with a positive outlook, well, as I told my roommate in the car, no way in hell will she be viewed as an emotional woman who isnt fit for President.  She got shot in the head for listening to her constituents.  The reports say straight through with the gunman at point-blank range; she's tough as fucking nails.  I shake my head in disbelief now not at what happened, but the fact that she is alive.  If I believed in a god, I would take this as a miracle and as a sign she's going to be President.  Call it the Harry Potter effect.  (I'm the type who uses humor for everything, these situations are always at my own peril.)

Still a long way to go for all my wishful thinking to come true.  Just, fuck.  I cant wait to read the the news tomorrow when some doctors have been interviewed.  How on Earth is she alive.....

[ Parent ]
Too optimistic
no way in hell will she be viewed as an emotional woman who isnt fit for President.  She got shot in the head for listening to her constituents.

Others (often partially disabled veterans) have had their histories used against them, with suggestions that it impaired their judgment.  And a brain injury actually could impair her judgment.  So no, in the malignant political environment that we actually have, it won't even be a clear positive politically.

[ Parent ]
After a while, it'd be pretty clear
whether she has the ability to capably serve as president. I mean, she's not going to run in 2012, and maybe not 2016.  

"I have never deliberately given anybody hell. I just tell the truth on the opposition-and they think it's hell."--President Harry Truman. President Obama, are you listening?
[ Parent ]
I agree
I never thoguht someone would try (or succeed) at painting Max Cleland as soft on defense but they did....
[ Parent ]
sickening
I am praying for Gabby and all involved. Today is a terrible day in America. I hope the fucker who did it does not commit suicide. He deserves a much slower painful death. I can't believe this.
Oh
I'm sure he's on suicide watch. There not going to let him kill himself.  

Proud member of the Indiana Democratic Party from IN-9.  
[ Parent ]
A horrible day......


19, Self Appointed Chair of the SSP Gay Caucus (I claimed it first :p), male, Dem, IN-09 (College IN-09) (Raised IL-03, IL-09)
[ Parent ]
Awful
This is just surreal. I think I literally went into shock when I first heard.  

Proud member of the Indiana Democratic Party from IN-9.  
[ Parent ]
Its hard to believe that just last night
we were debating her senate/presidential prospects. I'm not a religous man but I extend my greatest hopes to her and her family this should'nt happen to anyone. My sympathys go out to anyone killed. I know it sounds pointless as an anonymous blog post but this really hurt me and America needs leaders like Rep. Giffords.  

CO-02 (college)/FL-15 (home).  
[ Parent ]
Yeah
it's unreal. Luckily I think my prediction that she can be the first female President may still be true.  

Proud member of the Indiana Democratic Party from IN-9.  
[ Parent ]
I couldn't believe it. I was with my friends all day.
I came home at 3 and I got on SSP and this was the thing I saw. I just sat there in disbelief. Who could shoot a child? Absolutely horrendous.  

19, Self Appointed Chair of the SSP Gay Caucus (I claimed it first :p), male, Dem, IN-09 (College IN-09) (Raised IL-03, IL-09)
[ Parent ]
I
was planning on spending the entire day catching up on my reading/relaxing and not spending any time online. But I had left my tv on MSNBC last night and saw the news when I walked in my den to get my book.  

Proud member of the Indiana Democratic Party from IN-9.  
[ Parent ]
I had checked SSP this afternoon to see if my grotesque joke about Bob Barr had nauseated anyone else
This was not exactly what I had hoped to find instead.  

Independent Socialist & Chair of SSP Cranky Indianian Hoosier Caucus, IN-09
[ Parent ]
I got a notice about this in my email
and was thunderstruck. I'm rather glad I didn't hear the false reports that she had died of her wounds. I don't know what else to say; all of you have said it very well. My heart goes out to the loved ones of the murdered, the injured survivors, their loved ones, and all who were traumatized by witnessing this horrific crime.

"I'm not a member of any organized political party, I'm a Democrat!"
--  Will Rogers  
[ Parent ]
GOPVOTER,
Please, for the good of the country, fix your party.

Speaking of which, is the red!SSP up yet?

party: Democratic, ideology: moderate, district: CT-01

[ Parent ]
Jan 18th


My blog
Twitter
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28, New Democrat, Female, TX-03 (hometown CA-26)
[ Parent ]
Wasn't AZ-08 the district
where protesters carried AK-47s to Obama rallies just to prove they could? This is a disgusting culture of violence. Doing harm onto another should never ever be a recourse when you disagree with them. Truly horrible. I hope Giffords pulls through.  

NY-01/NY-19
they need to ban guns from campaign events at the federal level
It wouldnt help situations like this but it's time to send a message that we aren't tolerating this type of crap anymore.  (I definitely remember something in AZ but the one I remember didn't have to do with AK-47's.  Probably multiple incidents, however.)
[ Parent ]
Now that it looks like Giffords will pull through
I've got to ask the question--what were the networks thinking reporting her as dead? Her poor family and friends, having to see erroneous TV reports for about a half hour that she had died. The reporting on this case could go down in Dewey-Defeats-Truman infamy.

God bless her. A true miracle, to survive a point-blank shot to the head. He must still have plans for her.

20, CD MA-03/NH-01/MA-08

IDT its over yet but yeah its definately a huge botch.
But our media has a terrible record with "breaking news" and details so this doesn't surprise me but it still does disgust me that they would say that.  

CO-02 (college)/FL-15 (home).  
[ Parent ]
The problem with the pace our news organizations generally work at
Is that they are trying so hard to disseminate news quickly that either corners were cut or misinformed sources can rapidly spread details that aren't actually true.

Abe Vigoda is not dead.  

Independent Socialist & Chair of SSP Cranky Indianian Hoosier Caucus, IN-09

[ Parent ]
Competition
Desire to be first.
[ Parent ]
Yeah
It appears to me that this whole thing started with NPR's premature, inaccurate report, which was then parroted by at least some of the TV networks. I'm trying not to be cynical about it, but a lot of people jumped the gun for whatever reason.  

Independent Socialist & Chair of SSP Cranky Indianian Hoosier Caucus, IN-09
[ Parent ]
That was one hell of a two hours
Between when it was first reported she was dead and when the hospital finally confirmed that she had survived surgery and was actually doing pretty well given the situation. It went from me crying with my mother when her passing was reported to two hours of limbo as reports on her condition continued to vary greatly. I felt a little better when Sen. State (and close friend of Gabby) Linda Lopez was saying that she had survived and gotten through surgery around 1:30pm local time. Very difficult on her friends and family, her constituents and really everyone around the country who was following her story.

22, Democrat, AZ-01
Peace. Love. Gabby.
[ Parent ]
Awful reporting
And I'm sure it was an awful 2 hours.  But the joy of learning she is still alive must be something wonderful.
[ Parent ]
More than just alive...
Doing remarkably well!  It's truly a miracle.  It's very sad that the others weren't so lucky.

It would be wonderful if she manages a complete recovery.  Stranger things have happened.  Remember Bob Woodward and how well he's survived after losing half his skull in an explosion.

[ Parent ]
Woodruff.
Woodward is the guy who exposed Nixon.
[ Parent ]
I'll
say this MSNBC was probably the best. Considering anyway. I was constantly flipping between them and CNN and they did not call her death until long after CNN and they uncalled it long before CNN. They were also constantly ahead of CNN on the information coming in and got many good interviews. That said none were good considering the premature call of death, you have to be sure of such stuff before you report it. I'm sure NPR will get a lot of criticism for their sloppy reporting.  

Proud member of the Indiana Democratic Party from IN-9.  
[ Parent ]
Just reading up on James Brady
After he was mentioned earlier. Apparently there was quite a kerfuffle when the media incorrectly stated he had died back in 1981. Some things never change.
[ Parent ]
wow
Who said that? I mean that is just horrible. The idiot behind that one should get a talking to about fact checking at the very least.  

Proud member of the Indiana Democratic Party from IN-9.  
[ Parent ]
Quote
"During the confusion that followed after the shooting, all major media outlets erroneously reported that Brady had died. Later, when ABC News anchorman Frank Reynolds (a friend of Brady's) was forced to retract the report, he angrily stated on-air to his staff, "C'mon, let's get it nailed down!"[2] - resulting in Sam Donaldson joining him after commercial. During the hours-long operation, surgeon Dr. Arthur Kobrine was informed of the media's announcement of Brady's death, to which he retorted, "No one has told me and the patient.""

[ Parent ]
Oh
I thought you meant someone said that today. Like they were talking about past assassinations and said that Brady had been killed back then. That would be stupid. Didn't know they had Brady as dying back then, that's interesting.  

Proud member of the Indiana Democratic Party from IN-9.  
[ Parent ]
I remembered
I was 11 when the Reagan Assassination attempt happened.  I very vividly remembered the news coverage, including the initial report that Brady had died which had to be retracted.  When I read that the media had incorrectly reported Giffords' death, I immediately remembered Brady.
[ Parent ]
I was 10 years old when it happened
It was on a Monday, and later that day UNC and Indiana played for the NCAA Championship.  Dean Smith thought the game should have been postponed or not played (there was actually some informal talks about crowning Indiana and UNC as "co-champions").  I remember that my parents didn't even watch that game because they were numb from what had happened.  I watched the game..alone with my older sister.  Didn't really register with me at the time of the seriousness of the assassination attempt.  My parents lived thru the JFK assassination, and this failed attempt was too much for them.

40, male, Democrat, NC-04
[ Parent ]
Thoughts and prayers are with her
And can I just say SSP commenter has behaved just amazingly in light of this tragedy.  Very redeeming.

Yeah
Horrible - unspeakably horrible - as this event was, this community has behaved really well today. Thank you, everyone, for being at your best.
[ Parent ]
Curious, I just found out about this
Is there a news outlet that seems to be doing better than others in covering it (in your opinion).  I can't really handle being mis-informed on this right now and not sure if any one outlet is doing better than the others.
[ Parent ]
SSP is absolutely wonderful
When I'm depressed, and I've had many of those days in the last 2 1/2 months, reading SSP has really perked me up.  

40, male, Democrat, NC-04
[ Parent ]
I wouldn't expect anything less

[ Parent ]
I never know what to expect in political discourse
But I'll say i was happy when reading through this whole thread, even happier if those still fighting for life pull through and recover.
[ Parent ]
Indeed
I just meant people who post here are generally sensible in that regard for the most part.
[ Parent ]
It took me a while today
to see my way past painting our friends on the other side of the aisle with a broad brush, but I'm there now.

Wonder how long this will curb the media's appetite for violent political rhetoric.  I give it a few weeks...

34, WM, Democrat, FL-11

[ Parent ]
Other guns fired in self defence?
I've heard people saying that other people might've fired back at Loughner in self defense.  Has anything official been said about that possibility?  What worries me if this is true is that some of the people hurt or killed might actually have been shot by people trying to shoot back at Loughner.
Let's hope not
There's no silver lining available in all this, but innocent people shot in attempted self-defense could make this worse sadly.

Sigh, so sad.

[ Parent ]
other guns
The murderer had a pistol with a 30-round magazine and none of the reports said that he reloaded. There's no practical way he could have hit 18 different people with just 30 rounds. There had to have been more shooters. I read that the cops were looking for an accomplice, but I suspect you're right that one or more people may have tried to stop the killer but sadly only made it worse.  

41, Ind, CA-05
[ Parent ]
Which is why this idea of having people with C&C permits...
...can be a double edged sword.  Even the most honest, upright citizens are not prepared or trained for a situation like this.  
[ Parent ]
Reports suggest it took 30 minutes for EMS to respond
20 minutes for the Sheriff to arrive on the scene. Don't know if it's true, or what it means. Lots of sad explanations can be extrapolated.
We're getting so much misinformation
Who knows.  By monday we'll have a better read.  Even if its true, so many factors are out there that it will be a while before we can really make conclusions/explanations.
[ Parent ]
Followup -- timeline
http://www.azcentral.com/news/...

10:10 am -- shots fired
10:11 am -- 911 call received
10:14 am -- 1st EMS crews dispatched
10:19 am -- 1st EMS arrive, held back for 3 min while scene is being secured

w/r/t EMS/police response, seems about right. Obviously, one wishes it could have been faster.

Big unknown -- who is that white male "person of interest" in his 50s? It might be reasonable to wonder if he's the brains behind this possible act of terrorism, and if so, what are his motiviations, political and otherwise.

[ Parent ]
May have contributed to additional deaths at the scene
As for Rep. Giffords, it seems an extraordinarily good sign that she was responsive and speaking (not clear if she was coherent) both before and after surgery. Her friend Linda Lopez, a state senator from Tucson, said the bullet entered through one temple and exited through the forehead, so it may have only passed through one hemisphere of the brain and left a clean exit wound, which would be the best possible scenario for such a gruesome shooting.

20, center-left independent, Auckland Central resident, MD-05 voter, OR-01 native
[ Parent ]
That
would be the best possibility. If that was the case I feel confident about her chances. I'm praying for her. I was facebooking a doctor friend and he says her being coherent before is a great sign.  

Proud member of the Indiana Democratic Party from IN-9.  
[ Parent ]
I got the impression that the sheriff was out of state when the shooting occurred
He had called into MSNBC, but the connection was bad, so he called back in a few minutes later and said something about having crossed the California border.
[ Parent ]
I
really do not like Alan Grayson but he wrote a very nice and touching article about Giffords on the huffpo. Worth a read.  

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/...

Proud member of the Indiana Democratic Party from IN-9.  

That was a wonderful article
Thanks for sharing it.  Grayson's words were among the best I've heard or seen today, and there have been a lot of them today.

40, male, Democrat, NC-04
[ Parent ]
Likewise, I am no fan of Grayson's
But that is very good.  

Independent Socialist & Chair of SSP Cranky Indianian Hoosier Caucus, IN-09
[ Parent ]
A class act!


My blog
Twitter
Scribd
28, New Democrat, Female, TX-03 (hometown CA-26)
[ Parent ]
That was a great article
(coming from someone who is a fan of Grayson)
[ Parent ]
Gabe Zimmerman was the Giffords staffer who was killed
The report ID'ed him as Giffords' Director of Community Outreach. http://azstarnet.com/news/loca...

20, CD MA-03/NH-01/MA-08
Long day
For Congresswoman Giffords, her family, and everyone else involved in this, the day is nowhere near over. I imagine "today" won't be over for a long time. But with the news seeming to have settled, my day is over-- I think I'm going to bed really early tonight.

Thank you, SSP, for being here today. I'm far away from loved ones today and spent a lot of the day basically isolated and alone, following the news. When some of the worst reports were coming in, I was having trouble holding my emotions together, but as crazy as it sounds, reading the comments here helped keep me calm. There's a lot of warmth and compassion on this website, and it comes through at moments like this. So, thank you, everyone.

To the victims of today's events-- I'm not one to pray, but you'll be in my thoughts tonight and in the coming days. I wish there was more I could do.

I don't know what kind of political platform could have prevented this, but today is a good reminder that there's so much that needs to be done to make this a better world. I'm hoping Gabrielle Giffords is able to help us make those changes.

Hear, hear.


20, center-left independent, Auckland Central resident, MD-05 voter, OR-01 native
[ Parent ]
Holy shit
I just woke up a half hour ago, went to check my e-mail, and it's flooded with CNN Breaking News reports. And the "oh shit" sense went up with each one.

Several people shot in Tucson, AZ: !
Giffords among them: !!
Giffords is dead: !!!!!!!!!!!!!
Giffords not dead, just in surgery: Phew
6 people dead: !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Giffords out of surgery: Phew
US District Judge John Roll dead: !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

wow. what an awful start to the day. All there is to do now is pray that Giffords and all the other injured people recover.

21, dude, RI-01 (registered) IL-01 (college)
please help Japan. click "donate funds" in upper right and then "Japan Earthquake and Pacific Tsunami." http://www.redcross.org/

I know...
I was gone this afternoon and suddenly, out of nowhere, I find out all this stuff!  Life can certainly change in an instant.

It's amazing that she is alive and conscious after what happened--truly a miracle.  I can only hope she makes a complete recovery.

Very sad about the other people, though--especially the nine year old girl.  Ironically, the judge this guy shot was one of their own--he ruled that the Brady bill was unconstitutional.  Tragically ironic.

[ Parent ]
"One of their own"
Seriously, did you miss the part where we were keeping politics out of this.  I doubt Judge Roll was a proponent of the exectuion of judges.  

There's little if any reaosn to assume Judge Roll and his killer had anythign in common.  Just because a judge rules one way or the other does not mean the judge's personal leanings are the same as his rulings.

[ Parent ]
The shooter didn't keep politics out of it.
She was targeted for her politics.  It's hard to keep "politics" out of a situation like this when the gunman was politically motivated to the extreme.
[ Parent ]
Today is not the time to discuss it
especially in terms of accusations that political opponents (as opposed to their craziest supporters) planned her assassination.

It's gross, it's distasteful, and it's the quickest way to sour the American people against (other) Ds.

I understand it's an emotional reaction, and I apologize for my comments earlier on Palin's Website.

[ Parent ]
Sorry to have to be awkward
But no, the mods can rule what topics not to discuss.  

I say that as someone who has a very over-all dislike for the way people react to tragedy.  Just one of these days I'd love to see a school shooting actually result in something besides just a funeral and a court trial.  How about some legislation to fix the loopholes in getting guns?  We all mourn and no one gets angry.  That needs to change this time; this is clearly a partisan matter and it is GAME ON.  And unlike them, we don't use guns so grab your clipboards ya'll!

[ Parent ]
I'm a believer in waiting 24 hours
to be sure that the reactions are rational. Even Congress waited 24 hours after Pearl Harbor before declaring war.
[ Parent ]
What comments about Palin are you talking about? And...
...as far as I'm concerned Palin is a valid target of wrath.  She participated wholeheartedly and conspicuously in violent rhetoric that cause her side's most crazed supporters into believing violence is valid means to their ends.

This is 1994-95 all over again.  Yesterday's shooting was the crude and eery echo of Timothy McVeigh and Oklahoma City.  And the violent right-wing rhetoric of today is the same as the right-wing rhetoric of the early/mid-90s, complete with active militias planning for armed rebellion.

43, male, Indian-American, Democrat, VA-10

[ Parent ]
Freedom of speech is entirely legal
But that doesn't mean that it's a good idea to be a douchebag.

party: Democratic, ideology: moderate, district: CT-01
[ Parent ]
So True
Unfortunately, we can't police douchebagerry.  However, hate speech and speech that incites violence are prosecutable.

Male, 23, NJ-12
[ Parent ]
And Giffords supported Gun Rights, too
At least according to her statements, so she is "one of their own." She opposed the Washington DC Gun Ban.

Is that ironic as well?

[ Parent ]
Well, apparently, the shooter didn't get the memo when he targeted her for her politics.
A right wing lunatic goes after a congresswoman and you want to ignore his whole motivation behind the violence.

 

[ Parent ]
I doubt he went after her about gun rights

[ Parent ]
I don't think it's clear what the motives were.
From what I've seen so far, this person seems potentially mentally ill.  His anti-government complaints are diffuse and fairly unintelligible, and seem like paranoia.  I don't see much partisanship in it so far, although his gold standard line mimics some of the right wing talk going on right now.  He clearly had it out for Rep. Giffords, but it could be just because she's his congresswoman.  Will be interesting to see what else shakes out.  I just don't know what to make of it now.

For now, I'm just pulling for Rep. Giffords and the other survivors.

34, WM, Democrat, FL-11

[ Parent ]
Me too!
I apologize for inflaming the situation. That was not my intention.  I'm as upset be all of this as everyone else.

I'm hoping and praying for a full recovery.  I think it can really happen, based on what I'm reading. It's already a miracle that she's still alive!  I'm hoping for two--the second one being a complete recovery.

[ Parent ]
typo: "upset be all of this"
should be: "I'm as upset as everyone else is at this tragedy"
[ Parent ]
Wasn't coming down on you
My initial reaction was very severe anger towards the political right, but I've taken a more open minded view as things have progressed and I have calm down.  Will be following this obsessively, and there is plenty of time to draw more accurate conclusions about all aspects of it.

I can tell you care about Rep. Giffords and the other victims first and foremost from your other comments.

34, WM, Democrat, FL-11

[ Parent ]
Honestly
Don't apologize for anything.  I'm getting a bit tired of this false meme that everything so far is unknowable.  That's just not true, and whatever this man may have been, he was no fan friend of Democrats or the left, so we can stop that sh%t, right now.  Those not quick to judgement better hope and pray that this guy is severely mentally ill, because otherwise, his motives are damned clear.
[ Parent ]
I don't think it's "shit"
to acknowledge that one does not know the facts.  I don't rule out much of anything based on what I know right now, nor do I rule anything in.  His limited writings are incoherent.  I'm not going to pretend I know what's in the guy's mind until I have more facts.

34, WM, Democrat, FL-11
[ Parent ]
You
You can pretend whatever you want to pretend to help you sleep at night.  I'm done playing games.  There are a lot of unknowns, and their are just as many knowns at the moment, enough where I feel more than comfortable in judging what he is not, and what he is not is some radical leftist who went after her because she wasn't liberal enough.  That's a fact.

I wasn't even talking to you, but you chose to reply for me so now you can have some of this ire, too.

[ Parent ]
We all deal with adversity in our own ways.
You go ahead and do your thing.

34, WM, Democrat, FL-11
[ Parent ]
You
You don't have to give me permission.  I sleep just fine; I pray the same for you...
[ Parent ]
I guess there's nothing
someone can say to you that will not elicit a vitriolic response.  Let me try this: "Kittens and bunny rabbits."

34, WM, Democrat, FL-11
[ Parent ]
Hey
Keep on being a dick.  I can do this all day.
[ Parent ]
Come on, guys...
SSP is a great place because we don't squabble like children here, regardless of our differences. I know tensions are high and tempers are running hot right now, and this is a really sensitive topic, but no one wants to scroll through the [new] comments on this site (of all places) and see personal attacks.

Sorry if this comes across as overly didactic. It's just been really nice to have one place on the internet to discuss politics without rhetorical folding chairs being thrown across the room, and I hope it can stay that way.

20, center-left independent, Auckland Central resident, MD-05 voter, OR-01 native

[ Parent ]
You just described nearly every tea-partier
His anti-government complaints are diffuse and fairly unintelligible, and seem like paranoia.

But on a serious, agreeable standpoint, someone on my Fbook feed just posted a Palin tweet that has now been deleted that says, "Dont retreat, RELOAD!"  We can all agree that language like that needs to immediately end.

Here's the tweet     http://i.imgur.com/mGMts.png

[ Parent ]
99.9% of them
Wouldn't do this. But sure, they have to be careful with their rhetoric because there is always the odd nut that may.
[ Parent ]
Oh, and on top of the gold standard
He said a lot about English and literacy, clearly a hint at this border-district upbringing.  He looks just like any old douche bag Ron Paul supporter.  Although in defense of the douche bag Ron Paul supporters, the super liberal anarchist Ron Paul supporters ticked me off more.  I had a friend who was so liberal that she came out with the other side in this manner, bless her heart.....
[ Parent ]
Hitler and Stalin
So extreme they meet each other on the other side.
[ Parent ]
I've been saying that for a while
Ain't much difference between totalitarianism "for the state" and totalitarianism "for the people".

party: Democratic, ideology: moderate, district: CT-01
[ Parent ]
Yup, that is every teabagger. And on the matter of mental illness...
...I think we already have enough clear-cut factual information to conclude this guy's thinking is polluted to some degree by mental illness.

But it's not black-and-white that "either" he's just mentally deranged "or" he fully had his wits and knew exactly what he was doing.

There are degrees of mental incapacitation, it's not all-or-nothing.

And I speak from intimate knowledge of this, as I have a brother who is schizophrenic and at times in the past has gone off the rails, to the point of being a threat to public safety and getting in trouble with the law, when he stopped taking his medication.  But one thing I learned from his troubles is that news and current events play a role, even if perhaps not the primary one, in what goes on in his head, so the "environment" matters.

It's possible that this guy yesterday was mentally gone, not really acting out of any conscientious political motive.  But until we know more, it's equally possible that a mix of clearly-formed political motive and untreated mental disability was involved, and we don't know what that mix is.

43, male, Indian-American, Democrat, VA-10

[ Parent ]
Andrew makes excellent points here
but in fairness, I'm not "concluding" anything.  I just don't know yet.  I would guess it's a mix of mental illness and some kind of perceived violation of his belief system.  I just have little idea what to make of his belief system yet, although Andrew does a good job of drawing some conclusions from some of the clues.  Anti-government for sure, and probably anti-immigrant as well.  Those are fair surmises from what he has written.

34, WM, Democrat, FL-11
[ Parent ]
I think most people hate having their belief systems violated
Granted.

party: Democratic, ideology: moderate, district: CT-01
[ Parent ]
Really good point Andrew.
Didn't think of it that way as I was writing it, but I cannot argue with what you say.

34, WM, Democrat, FL-11
[ Parent ]
I like how all of that rhetoric and imagery is being sanitized now
It's all just talk until some lunatic commits an act of domestic terrorism.  

Independent Socialist & Chair of SSP Cranky Indianian Hoosier Caucus, IN-09
[ Parent ]
It provided a pretty jarring contrast
to the thing I was previously focused on:  the possibility of "Glee" doing a Justin Bieber episode.  Puts things in perspective (though a Justin Bieber episode is still an atrocity waiting to happen).
[ Parent ]
Does anyone here know anything about
Medical neuroscience? What are usually the results of events like this? Will Giffords have to function differently because of what the bullet did to her brain? Will there be irreparable damage? What are the chances that she'll have a full recovery and be able to walk, speak, etc?

Some Dude, 19, Democrat, NH-02 (residence), MA-08 (college)
And obviously I'm hoping
that she'll be able to come back and perform the job she's done so well for 4 years now. But I don't want to make this too political, so I'm more concerned with how her condition will be.

Some Dude, 19, Democrat, NH-02 (residence), MA-08 (college)
[ Parent ]
Too
soon to say. But if I had to put money right now, I don't think she'll be back to congress for a while if not at all. It really depends on the speed of the bullet and where it passed through in the brain.

"A rifle, or a military weapon (firing high-velocity bullets), almost always creates a lot of distortion, a lot of injury to tissue that's not just along the track (of the bullet) but for centimeters on either side of the track," he said. "The faster you go, the bigger the shockwave. The faster you go, the more tissue is disrupted. It's the shock effect, not the bullet going through the tissue."

Read more: http://www.politico.com/news/s...

19, Male, Independent, CA-12

[ Parent ]
Well, the doctor with the pessimistic assessment...
Is basing his prognosis completely on speculation. He admits he has no facts.  The treating physician seems much more optimistic.
[ Parent ]
The fact that she is conscious and responding to commands..
Is incredibly good news... remarkably good news.  She really shouldn't be even alive right now, much less awake. She got really, really lucky (if anyone could be considered lucky after being shot in the head).

Based on the information publicly available about the location of the wound, there is a very good chance that she will be spared any major disability, other than some probable memory loss (frontal lobe damage--would hurt with impulse control as well). Considering what happened, that would be a very remarkable recovery.  That area of the brain isn't really involved with motor control or sensory perception.  The frontal lobe is a where information is collected and sorted out.  Too much damage could create a "lobotomized" type of situation, but the doctors don't seem to be indicating that (thank goodness).

I know we are all hoping for the best.  A good recovery by her would be a glint of light and hope on an otherwise very dark, dark day.

We probably won't know for a long time, though.

[ Parent ]
There is a lot of talk right now...
...about brain swelling, and that really, really is a key factor at the moment.  They need to keep that swelling down.  I imagine they are pumping her full of corticosteroids at the moment and possibly giving her diamox (a diuretic that reduced cerebrospinal fluid production).  They may also need to put a shunt in.

Since the brain has very limited space in which to expand in the skull, If her brain swells up really badly, then she could get much much worse instead of getting better over the next few weeks.

She will probably seem worse for awhile, regardless. Neurological injuries tend to get worse before they get better.  If people start hearing on the news that she's doing worse, that should not necessarily be a cause for alarm.  We won't know for at least 6 weeks where she really stands, and 6 months where she might end up being.

I really am hoping for a miracle here.  I think it can happen.  

[ Parent ]
You
know your stuff. Do you have a medical background? Her being alive right now is astonishing, most people wouldn't survive getting shot through the head. A doctor friend of mine told me she has to have friends in high places just to be alive right now.  

Proud member of the Indiana Democratic Party from IN-9.  
[ Parent ]
I know enough to be dangerous! ;-)
The real experts are the ones treating her right now.  I haven't studied this kind of stuff in a long time, and a lot of it is going on memory from books and experiences with friends/family who have suffered from traumatic brain injury/neurological injury of various sorts--certainly not the kind of knowledge and experience that her treating doctors have by any means.

So, I don't want you guys thinking that I'm Sanjay Gupta or anything! ;-)  

But, someone asked, so I'm just trying to help, I guess... I hope it's at least somewhat helpful.  Forgive me if it ends up being totally off in the end.  I just have a good feeling about this.  I don't know why, really. I just do.

[ Parent ]
Brain Swelling
The reason I haven't been so optimistic is that I had a teacher in high school who was in a car accident.  At first it didn't look good, but they were able to stabilize him. Unfortunately, he died days and days later because they couldn't keep the swelling down.  His prognosis went from stable to bad to good to bad and everything in between before he died.

Giffords is not out of the woods, yet, so let us keep heart.

[ Parent ]
The brain swelling is the real x factor in all of this...
The fact that she's awake and responsive suggests that the initial damage was surprisingly minimal, but that's irrelevant at the moment.  What matters now is the swelling.  That is the key to whether she makes it our relatively unscathed or ends up worse than she is right now.

They didn't specify what sort of surgery they did on her.  They did suggest that it wasn't to relieve the swelling and they might go back in again, so I wonder what they did in there earlier today.

[ Parent ]
Hope?
A bunch of tweets are saying she is now awake and recognizes her husband. Nothing official mind you but I take it as a good sign.  

Proud member of the Indiana Democratic Party from IN-9.  
[ Parent ]
It is compatible?

To have a shot what affect to the brain and to be awake after the surgery?
[ Parent ]
The human brain is a strange thing.
It seems almost anything is possible.

19, Self Appointed Chair of the SSP Gay Caucus (I claimed it first :p), male, Dem, IN-09 (College IN-09) (Raised IL-03, IL-09)
[ Parent ]
There is the famous case of Phineas Gage

A 19th century railroad worker who had a three and a half foot long iron rod blown through his skull after an explosives accident. He was, of course, severely injured, but survived the incident and was supposedly speaking to his rescuers minutes after the explosion. Brain injuries can be very peculiar things. 



Independent Socialist & Chair of SSP Cranky Indianian Hoosier Caucus, IN-09
[ Parent ]
Gage
If that is the same person who was mentioned in a recent PBS programme on the brain, tho he survived the accident, his begaviour suffered a severe change.

Instead of a steady worker, he became not a steady worker et al.

Joe Cooper

[ Parent ]
That's true
But (as the Wiki article notes) some of the behavioral changes Gage supposedly suffered may have been exaggerated by writers, and besides that, medical and rehabilitation techniques have also advanced to a certain degree in the past hundred and fifty years.  

Independent Socialist & Chair of SSP Cranky Indianian Hoosier Caucus, IN-09
[ Parent ]
This LA times article
explains it pretty well. Based off what we can deduce so far, several factors about what parts of the brain the bullet damaged appear to have worked in her favor. I'm sure there will be much more information on the extent of her injuries in the next few days.

22, Democrat, AZ-01
Peace. Love. Gabby.
[ Parent ]
Im no neuroscientist
But I just recently watched Jurassic Park; life finds a way.  She may never be the same again, or sometimes it is that once in a generation medical story.
[ Parent ]
Well, if she survives without any significant brain damage...
... the publicity could help her political future, for those of you concerned with that.
Absolutely.
She's a national hero right now. If she recovers ok and Kyl retires I think she walks into the Senate. She'll have no trouble keeping her CD, that's definite. I don't mean to sound insensitive talking politics this early but I think its ok since it's a positive note.  

Proud member of the Indiana Democratic Party from IN-9.  
[ Parent ]
I do hate to talk about politics right now
But she could probably win any Tucson-based district easily at this point. The outpouring of support I've seen for her from Baja Arizonans is just enormous. That depends of course on whether or not she's able to continue to serve. I still can't quite process the possibility that her condition will worsen or that she won't recover to the point where she can continue to serve.

22, Democrat, AZ-01
Peace. Love. Gabby.
[ Parent ]
I think she's set for life if she can recover
Any swing/undecided voter would have to say to themselves, this woman got shot in the head being available to the people she represents and now she wants to include me in that group of people?

I cant wait to go to work on Monday and chat with politically normal people on the subject because I'm obviously very biased on what to think.  Ha, and I'll ask the guy who is Jeremiah Wright but in Minneapolis.  He's too old to bother disagreeing with so you just let him go and you just have to laugh.  I'm pretty sure he doesnt ever vote because they're all corrupt so who cares.

[ Parent ]
Much of the deification of Kennedy and Reagan
For the same reason.
[ Parent ]
There will always
be a group of people that will vote against a candidate for any number of reasons. Right now, she has a few things going for her. The circumstances around it are obviously awful, but she is now becoming a household name. I wouldn't be surprised if she's more recognizable, for at least a few years, than any of the leadership of the House and Senate. What's more, she comes across, unsurprisingly, as a sympathetic figure. As you said, she got shot in her fucking head by trying to be available for her district. And in a lot of the profiles I've read, she's portrayed as one of those wonderful moderate/centrist Democrats, as opposed to one of those awful fucking liberal Democrats, even as she voted for the majority of the administration's agenda.

So, she has all of these things now going for her, when she had a lot going for her in the first place. Maybe she won't walk into the Senate as hoosierdem said, but assuming she's well enough to continue like she normally would, she comes in with so many advantages, it's absurd.  

"I have never deliberately given anybody hell. I just tell the truth on the opposition-and they think it's hell."--President Harry Truman. President Obama, are you listening?

[ Parent ]
There will always
be a group of people that will vote against a candidate for any number of reasons. Right now, she has a few things going for her. The circumstances around it are obviously awful, but she is now becoming a household name. I wouldn't be surprised if she's more recognizable, for at least a few years, than any of the leadership of the House and Senate. What's more, she comes across, unsurprisingly, as a sympathetic figure. As you said, she got shot in her fucking head by trying to be available for her district. And in a lot of the profiles I've read, she's portrayed as one of those wonderful moderate/centrist Democrats, as opposed to one of those awful fucking liberal Democrats, even as she voted for the majority of the administration's agenda.

So, she has all of these things now going for her, when she had a lot going for her in the first place. Maybe she won't walk into the Senate as hoosierdem said, but assuming she's well enough to continue like she normally would, she comes in with so many advantages, it's absurd.  

"I have never deliberately given anybody hell. I just tell the truth on the opposition-and they think it's hell."--President Harry Truman. President Obama, are you listening?

[ Parent ]
I'm checking in for the first time just now, and I'm stunned......
My wife ran across the news for the first time earlier this morning on the Yahoo home page as she was getting online to buy birthday party supplies for our kids.  I was stunned then, but the gravity of it didn't sink in until I got online a short time ago.

I had no idea the news had previously reported Giffords' death.  That deserves to live on in infamy in the annals of shoddy journalism, no less than the nets calling Florida for Gore on election night 2000.  But I don't know if it will.  It's a big fucking deal to report that, you better be 100% rock-solid correct or else hold back.  It makes me unbelievably angry at the media, even as misplaced as that might seem on a night when the anger should be directed at the people who did this.

Speaking of which, I haven't seen anyone here post the news that a second suspect is being sought.  For all I know at this point that could just be yet more misreporting, but if there really was an accomplice, then this was something more than a severely and violently mentally ill man.

I fear this sort of thing for my family and myself.  I work in a federal building extremly close to the U.S. Capitol.  My kids' daycare/preschool is in my building, we commute together every workday.  Our house is close to the CIA, although out-of-the-way enough that it would take a big attack to actually threaten our very home.  And the violence I've feared for a long time hasn't been foreign terrorists, it's domestic terrorists.  There are simply a lot more would-be Timothy McVeighs across America than there are Islamic militants.  And that a 9-year old girl was murdered today only makes it that much more chilling for me, it's exactly what I fear for my kids, that they somehow get trapped in a horrific event by mere circumstance.

I'm just heartsick today, for everyone suffering from that attack today, but most acutely that 9-year old girl and her parents more than anyone else.

43, male, Indian-American, Democrat, VA-10

I
would be scared to be a member of Congress right now. I would think (hope) this incident equals to higher security for Congress members.  

Proud member of the Indiana Democratic Party from IN-9.  
[ Parent ]
I think about what Baron Hill did during his campaign last year
When he went for those walks through the district with only a small party of aides and reporters with him, if anyone at all. I hope our elected officials keep doing things like that, or what Gabby Giffords was doing today, but I find myself doubtful.  

Independent Socialist & Chair of SSP Cranky Indianian Hoosier Caucus, IN-09
[ Parent ]
Yeah
and Hill was on Sarah's hit list as well. It is scary Bob, really scary. I'm sure Hill has been thinking about his luck today. Honestly if I was a member of Congress I probably wouldn't. At least not without security that is. I would hope this helps end some of the rhetoric out there but I do not get my hopes up. I also hope (and pray for that matter) that this killer doesn't get copycats. That sometimes happens in high profile things like this. I plan on writing to Young telling him the need of members of Congress to get better protection now. Boehner should at least make a public advisory that every member of Congress higher security at public events for awhile.  

Proud member of the Indiana Democratic Party from IN-9.  
[ Parent ]
Nick Rahall
He's the only other one on the hit list who's still in Congress. I wonder if he's asked for Secret Service protection.

41, Ind, CA-05
[ Parent ]
That's not a bad idea
I think I'll do the same.

Independent Socialist & Chair of SSP Cranky Indianian Hoosier Caucus, IN-09
[ Parent ]
The speculation
running through my mind about the accomplice is that maybe the accomplice, if he exists, is a person with a clearer partisan agenda exhorting the unstable 22-year-old to violence.  As far as I've heard, the accomplice may be older, perhaps 50 years old, so that part fits.

34, WM, Democrat, FL-11
[ Parent ]
most notorious media screw-up I recall
was when Ron Brown's plan crashed in Yugoslavia in the 1990s. One of the major news agencies (I think it was AFP) didn't have a reporter at the airport, but filed a story after the expected arrival time saying Brown had landed in Yugoslavia. Later they had to update saying the plane crashed, killing everyone on board. I think the updated story even tried to pin the blame for the initial false report on the Yugoslav news agency or something. Incredibly lame.
[ Parent ]
My dad told me about the
Israeli Olympic athlete kidnappings at Munich.  When the kidnappers were caught, it was immediately reported that all Olympic athletes were rescued immediately.  However, in reality, one of the kidnappers had thrown a grenade into the van with the hostages, killing them all.

Ad hoc, ad loc and quid pro quo!
So little time, so much to know!
[ Parent ]
2nd suspect
was the cab driver who drove the shooter to the scene. He turned himself in to the police, who questioned and released him.

Joe Cooper
[ Parent ]
Mistaken News
I had no idea the news had previously reported Giffords' death.

As bad as it seems, it is understandable.  The only news I personally saw reporting her death (as opposed to her shooting) was about "Gabe Giffords".  Since there was a Gabe from Gabriel Giffords' office who was killed, it isn't hard to see how that could be misheard.

[ Parent ]
I feel the most sympathy right now
for the families of the people who died, because, rightly or wrongly, the focus of this is almost entirely on Rep. Giffords; even Judge Roll is at most a sidebar.

Though, conversely, maybe that gives them some deserved privacy.

FWIW
Only the families of Roll and Zimmerman have allowed their names to be released to the media. I'm sure much more about other victims will come out in the coming days.

22, Democrat, AZ-01
Peace. Love. Gabby.
[ Parent ]
That 9-year old girl is what really crushes me......
I got kids, we commute together every weekday as their daycare/preschool is in my work building, and as I commented above I live and work at or very near what would be potential targets.  And this sort of thing, domestic terrorism, is what I've always feared, not Islamic extremists.

It just hits me right in the gut that a 9-year old girl was murdered in this.  It dovetails with my fears for my own kids.

43, male, Indian-American, Democrat, VA-10

[ Parent ]
It's even more heartbreaking
when you realize that she was actually interested in civics and government.

party: Democratic, ideology: moderate, district: CT-01
[ Parent ]
I know
I can't help but think back to when I was nine years old-- if someone had taken me to meet my congressperson, I would have been thrilled! I would have been so excited to be there. It would have been a formative experience.

So sad.

[ Parent ]
I would have pee'd my pants at that age
And then when I actually became old enough to vote and realized it was Tom Delay, the shame, oh the shame!!!!  Much like reconciliation, I would have required four double lattes at a non-chain coffee shop and five readings of Karl Marx to repent.  Better throw in a trip to the gay bar to be on the safe side.  Not to repent, but to make myself feel better afterwards.  :)
[ Parent ]
Judge John Roll
Most of the discussion, understandably has been about Rep. Giffords, but we should take a good deal of time to contemplate Judge Roll's death. According to President Obama, he served four decades practicing law in a variety of capacities and went to the event simply to say hi to the Congresswoman.

God bless, Judge Roll. Thanks for your public service.

19, male, Dem, CT-04 (home) PA-02 (college and registered)

Seconded.
An enviable life of service prematurely ended.  

Independent Socialist & Chair of SSP Cranky Indianian Hoosier Caucus, IN-09
[ Parent ]
Very sad
Was the judge against the papers please law? I heard he was a Bush appointee but I also heard he was a liberal. Regardless he was taken out in the prime of his career. RIP.  

Proud member of the Indiana Democratic Party from IN-9.  
[ Parent ]
Christina Taylor Green
The nine-year-old victim was named Christina Taylor Green.  She was just elected to a student council position, and a friend invited her to the meeting.  There's another mortifying detail.  Christina was born on September 11, 2001.  In fact, her baby photo was featured in a book called "Faces of Hope" that collected photos of babies born on 9/11.  
Life
And death continually throw up things like that. Absolutely heartbreaking.
[ Parent ]
New report
that Rep. Giffords has spoken to people from her hospital bed and recognized her husband Mark Kelly.

http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo...

34, WM, Democrat, FL-11

Great news


Independent Socialist & Chair of SSP Cranky Indianian Hoosier Caucus, IN-09
[ Parent ]
A good
sign. Hopefully she pulls through this okay. I'm not much of a religious person but some higher power must of smiled on her today.

19, Male, Independent, CA-12
[ Parent ]
Muy Bien


Proud member of the Indiana Democratic Party from IN-9.  
[ Parent ]
That's good


24, male, African-American, CA-24, Democrat. Chair of the SSP Black Caucus.
[ Parent ]
Giffords is now America's Congresswoman
If she does recover--and that is a big if--out of this horrible day will come a small ray of hope. Because of all the details of this story, Giffords will stay in the news and her recovery and return to service would be an inspirational story for this country.

20, CD MA-03/NH-01/MA-08
Yes
Yes she is.  
[ Parent ]
Thank you SSP
This community has been a great a resource today and everyone has been in their highest form. I'm proud to be a member of the Swing State Project community.

I think I'm still in shock in a lot of ways; I still can't quite believe that this happened here, where I live, where I grew up, where I was frankly excited to be leaving in just a couple of weeks for a new job. I can't believe that it happened to her, the first congressional candidate I ever voted for. I know that I saw the medi-vac helicopters as they rushed her and others to UMC--I saw the news footage of them leaving the Safeway so I know that they're the same ones--but I don't want to believe that hanging out on Mountain Avenue on the University or Arizona campus at 11am is all it takes to have witnessed that little bit of history.

There are certainly reasons to be optimistic--the fact that she's made it this far and is apparently at least responsive a very good sign, and more than the families of the deceased were ever given. But even in the best case scenario, the road in front of her will be extremely difficult. Even just as a constituent, it is immensely heartening to see that people all around the world care so deeply about her well being and recovery. I'm sure that her close friends and family know this as well and that the outpouring of support from SSP and everywhere else is helping them get through this terrible time.

RIP to all those who passed, and keep all of the victims and families in your thoughts.

22, Democrat, AZ-01
Peace. Love. Gabby.

Thinking of you...
Along with the victims, families and friends of the victims, and all the people of Southern Arizona today.

20, center-left independent, Auckland Central resident, MD-05 voter, OR-01 native
[ Parent ]
Thank you Sao
I know that you've always been one of Giffords' biggest boosters on this site and on the internet. It really speaks to her incredible influence and fortitude that just as a third-term congresswoman she's picked up fans across the country.

22, Democrat, AZ-01
Peace. Love. Gabby.
[ Parent ]
I too
have been a fan of her, even before this untimely tragedy.

My blog
Twitter
Scribd
28, New Democrat, Female, TX-03 (hometown CA-26)
[ Parent ]
Food for Thought
There were 20 Congresspersons on Sarah Palin's "target map." Two (Snyder and Gordon) retired, one (Mollohan) lost a Democratic primary, and 15 were defeated in the November election. That left two standing - Gabrielle Giffords of Arizona and Nick Rahall of West Virginia. One of those is in the emergency room with a bullet through the head.  

34, WM, Democrat, FL-11
is there any
proof that this guy has ever visited Palin's site?  The Dems ran a campaign ad against JD Hayworth in 06 with his face in a gun scope thing.

Libertarian secular Republican, MO-7
[ Parent ]
No
I'm just reciting facts.

34, WM, Democrat, FL-11
[ Parent ]
Just to be clear
the idea of Palin as President does not please me either.  I just don't see this guy as being a fan of hers.  How many of her fans smoke pot, are atheist and read the Communist Mannifesto?  

Libertarian secular Republican, MO-7
[ Parent ]
I doubt if this is a Palin fan
but Palin is part of a broad base of people who have engaged in bellicose, dehumanizing rhetoric that may help make people like this feel justified in killing.  

Hearing now of ties to the white supremacy movement, which makes sense as a motivating factor in that part of the world.

34, WM, Democrat, FL-11

[ Parent ]
A bigger question
is whether the suspect acted alone. There is a search for some 50 something white male as a "person of interest". If connected, would that person have "handled" the suspect, and what is his political connections?
[ Parent ]
He has been cleared
He just had the misfortune of walking into the grocery store at the same time as the killer.  
[ Parent ]
He turned out to be a taxi driver
The killer took a cab to the Safeway and went into the store to get change so he could pay the cab fare. The driver followed him in to make sure he got his fare, and cameras picked up images of the two walking together.

20, CD MA-03/NH-01/MA-08
[ Parent ]
It doesn't matter whether he was a fan of her's though
The fact is, her and people like her (Sharon Angle, Glenn Beck, etc.) have been putting out some pretty gruesome messages for the past few years that I'm pretty sure are aimed at the crazy gun-toting "shack in Montana" crowd (Glenn Beck is selling emergency seeds in case of an apocalypse for god sakes lol). Obviously most won't act on them, but a few will respond to the more heated rhetoric by turning violent, regardless of their political views.

That's why we need to tone it down a little, I mean, it's one thing to use a figure of speech, it's another to talk about using "the bullet box"

21, Male, Democrat, MD-02 (home/registered), MD-05 (college)

[ Parent ]
Seriously?
(Glenn Beck is selling emergency seeds in case of an apocalypse for god sakes lol).

Is he really? If so, he needs to check into a mental ward.  
[ Parent ]
Working people into a panic and then selling them things isn't insane
It's just good business! :D

Independent Socialist & Chair of SSP Cranky Indianian Hoosier Caucus, IN-09
[ Parent ]
Big motha-fucking Bingo
The entire problem with Fox News.  (Ha, just had a typo that was "Fix News".  Too perfect.)
[ Parent ]
Well
Beck isn't personally, but one of his advertisers are. Still fucking weird though. Not a surprise there are companies out there willing to take advantage of people's misguided fears that the world is going to end on December 21st, 2012. Which would be a bitch because that's my birthday and I turn 21 that year. I would at least like to enjoy one night of bar hoping with my friends tyvm.

http://mediamatters.org/blog/2...

19, Male, Independent, CA-12

[ Parent ]
Why wait to 21?
Thats what your 18th  birthday is for.
[ Parent ]
Does New Orleans still allow drinking while driving?
(or is that an urban legend? in any case, I had my first bit of Everclear there -- made a double shot of scotch seem like near-beer by comparison.)
[ Parent ]
Here's a fact
Sarah Palin did not shoot Giffords. Your implication that she is partially responsible is reckless.
[ Parent ]
This should go well


Independent Socialist & Chair of SSP Cranky Indianian Hoosier Caucus, IN-09
[ Parent ]
This really isn't appropriate.


19, Self Appointed Chair of the SSP Gay Caucus (I claimed it first :p), male, Dem, IN-09 (College IN-09) (Raised IL-03, IL-09)
[ Parent ]
I made no such implication.
I merely laid out facts.  Thou doth protest too much.

34, WM, Democrat, FL-11
[ Parent ]
Bullshit, she shares responsibility
She used violent gun imagery in targeting Giffords for defeat, and Giffords explicitly and publicly called her out on it as creating a safety risk.  Then Giffords is shot in the head.

Your parroting of right-wing talking points is what is reckless.

43, male, Indian-American, Democrat, VA-10

[ Parent ]
Will it affect the R electorate?
These bits suggest so. First, supporting what DCCyclone says --
http://andrewsullivan.theatlan...

The Palin forces, who have fomented this dynamic more viciously and recklessly than any other group, are reacting today with incandescent rage that they could even be mentioned in the same breath as this act of political terrorism. That's called denial. When you put a politician in literal cross-hairs, when you call her a target, when you celebrate how many targets you have hit, when you go on national television and shoot guns, when you use the language of "lock and load" to describe disagreements over healthcare provision ... you are part of the problem.

Second, the effect on electoral politics

http://www.theatlantic.com/pol...

Since the right wing, and especially the Tea Party, have been the epicenter of political anger, they can expect much tougher coverage

While the article focuses on the Presidential race (and makes an obvious error, calling "Mein Kampf" a left-wing book), I think the article is otherwise on point for Rs in Congressional elections too.

[ Parent ]
I'm skeptical this will affect the behavior of non-candidates or ordinary Republican voters......
I do think John Boehner, other non-freshmen GOP elected officials at least in Congress (perhaps not state legislatures), and federal candidates top-to-bottom are likely to be careful in their choices of rhetorical metaphors going forward.

But right-wing noisemakers who never run for anything won't change a thing.  And neither will teabagger freshmen in the House, and perhaps in the Senate although I think Rand Paul and Mike Lee might be the only teabagging freshmen in that chamber (Toomey already had repositioned himself as an establishmentarian).  And Republican voters will shrug it off and still vote as they would otherwise, which includes voting on their anger as much as anything.

I don't think that signals a teabagger GOP Prez nominee in 2012.  Before this shooting I thought there remained a good chance that GOP voters ultimately would be practical and pick someone electable, not Palin or Gingrich or some other choice with a narrow base.  But I don't think the shooting makes an electable nominee any more likely than before, either.

Downballot, the GOP has maxed out in House and will simply play defense, with challengers to Dems getting very little attention or traction.  In the Senate, it's hard to say how GOP primary voters will react, and if they go more establishment in their picks I think it will be because they got the wake-up call from the Angle/O'Donnell/Buck/Miller experience, not from the shooting.

43, male, Indian-American, Democrat, VA-10

[ Parent ]
Will it affect the R electorate?
These bits suggest so. First, supporting what DCCyclone says --
http://andrewsullivan.theatlan...

The Palin forces, who have fomented this dynamic more viciously and recklessly than any other group, are reacting today with incandescent rage that they could even be mentioned in the same breath as this act of political terrorism. That's called denial. When you put a politician in literal cross-hairs, when you call her a target, when you celebrate how many targets you have hit, when you go on national television and shoot guns, when you use the language of "lock and load" to describe disagreements over healthcare provision ... you are part of the problem.

Second, the effect on electoral politics

http://www.theatlantic.com/pol...

Since the right wing, and especially the Tea Party, have been the epicenter of political anger, they can expect much tougher coverage

While the article focuses on the Presidential race (and makes an obvious error, calling "Mein Kampf" a left-wing book), I think the article is otherwise on point for Rs in Congressional elections too.

[ Parent ]
She is no
more responsible for this guy actually shooting Giffords than a gas station attendant is for a drunk driver killing people because he filled up that driver's tank with gas. As you said, Palin didn't actually shoot Giffords.

But nobody is suggesting she did that. What they are claiming is that she's taken the sort of intense passion that comes with politics and coupled it with the sort of hysterical claims and outrageous, if unintended, calls to violence. When you claim that a certain set of people are more patriotic or simply better because of a simple disagreement they may have with another set of people, you are being divisive. And when you use the language that treats these people not as opponents in the normal sense but enemies whose advancement must be stopped, as if they were robbers or a foreign army, you are making a bad situation worse. And when you use violent rhetoric and the imagery of taking people out without being really, really clear of your intentions, you create the sort of climate where awful things can happen. It's not yet clear that anything Palin or anyone else like her said or did had any sort of role in this weekend's shootings, but if it did, it shouldn't be surprising. It's the sort of result a lot of people have feared for long time.

As Steven Dreihous said in response to John Boehner claiming he'd be a dead man if he went back to his district after voting for health care reform, it's not that people like him are encouraging violence. But they do need to be mindful of how the least rational person will use their words.

However acceptable this sort of language was in the past, it's probably unacceptable to use it in the future. I'm not sure we need new laws about this. Perhaps we can simply encourage everyone, on both sides, to be careful with what they say. There's no reason to temper passions. We can all be forceful and motivated without being, well, insane.  

"I have never deliberately given anybody hell. I just tell the truth on the opposition-and they think it's hell."--President Harry Truman. President Obama, are you listening?

[ Parent ]
Sarah Palin is simply a fucking moron
And what I think should worry us more is not Sarah Palin's rhetoric in words, but the fact that she is saying them at all, which means she's leading a lot more people, sadly, than just herself.  She has no thoughts, she has no educated beliefs, she is simply the same scared, ignorant person we all were when we first saw the big city and it's flashing lights.  And, she is a politician.  As much as she decries "politics as usual", she is the essence of politics as usual.  Her ignorance may be why she thinks she is different, but she flagrantly lies to people to get them to support her just like the best of politicians.

And the big question I'm left with is, would I rather have someone lie to me out of good intentions or bad intentions?  Bad intentions means they're immoral but smart, good intentions means they are just stupid.

[ Parent ]
Boehner
Yeah great example. Driehaus knew he didn't mean it that way but someone unstable might not. Reminds me of the CSPAN caller who prayed that a Dem would miss the HCR vote and was in a panic thinking it actually caused a Republican to be absent.
[ Parent ]
I respect
your opinions, and you seem well informed, so let me ask you a question that hopefully won't devolve into a shouting match: where are the people on the left that are doing this that are associated with the mainstream of the Democratic party? There will always be nuts out there, and sometimes, they will be organized. Maybe this is my partisan nature talking, but I just can't think of any recent prominent examples of left-leaning people doing this stuff.  

"I have never deliberately given anybody hell. I just tell the truth on the opposition-and they think it's hell."--President Harry Truman. President Obama, are you listening?
[ Parent ]
Neither can I

[ Parent ]
I'll repost a comment I made on PW, if y'all don't mind
You know, Rep. Giffords is probably second only to Sen. Wyden among my very favorite members of Congress; I've been following her career for years now. And I've been bothered by the violent rhetoric coming from the far right, including influential Republicans like Sarah Palin, Sharron Angle, Rep. King, and Rep. West and big-name conservative pundits like Glenn Beck, Bill O'Reilly, and Ann Coulter, for a long time now.

It may be that Jared Lee Loughner was influenced in his ultimate decision to buy a gun and shoot a Democratic congresswoman, whose district was "targeted" by Palin's SarahPAC, through the head. It may be that the nasty, clearly combustible political climate contributed to his paranoia and mistrust of the government. But just about all the evidence I've seen suggests that Loughner's politics are not heterodox. I've seen nothing to convince me he's a liberal and nothing to convince me he's a conservative. Nothing makes me confident he'd identify with either the Tea Party or any other group linked to either left or right. The evidence I've seen suggests that Jared Lee Loughner is a very, very disturbed individual with a lot of psychological issues. It suggests he is extremely unwell.

Whether the political climate or the rhetoric of some public figures pushed him over the edge is unknown. It might never be known for certain. Either way, rhetoric that suggests physical violence or harm - or can be interpreted as such, even by fringe members of the populace - is unacceptable. We don't need to legislate limits on free speech, but we do need to be mindful of what we are saying and conscious of the humanity of even those with whom we disagree. We are capable of that as Americans and as human beings. We must learn from the bloody example of Tucson what happens when someone, anyone, regardless of their political convictions or their ideology, turns to violence as a means of expressing their views. That is not a country in which we want to live.

Together we must save America from the worst vices of our own species. We must defeat chaos and anarchy, and the emotions of hatred and intolerance, with the strength of our values as members of a free, open, civilized and democratic society.

20, center-left independent, Auckland Central resident, MD-05 voter, OR-01 native

[ Parent ]
So... when are you planning to run for office?
One hell of a speech, there. Heh.  

Independent Socialist & Chair of SSP Cranky Indianian Hoosier Caucus, IN-09
[ Parent ]
Haha, thanks
I'm flattered, but I don't know if I could deal with all that so well. I just hope there's something we as citizens can do to improve our political conditions.

20, center-left independent, Auckland Central resident, MD-05 voter, OR-01 native
[ Parent ]
Middle
I think playing it down the middle for its own sake is really kind of disingenuous.  I've said this in other threads, but just because he didn't hue down to the very issue on one narrow path doesn't mean we can't surmise his lean.  I think from even the little that we do know that at the very least we know he didn't lean left on net, and at the most, he leaned more to the right on the more important issue.  This man by preliminary accounts wasn't a fan of abortion, a big fan of the gold standard, generally anti-government all the way around, and ultimately in the end influenced by gun nuts.  All of the other stuff (i.e. a fan of a flag burning video on Youtube, his odd listing of favorite books -- many of which I doubt he even read --, etc...) while not irrelevant, is tangential to those central realities.

I think it's intellectually dishonest, for whatever reason, to pretend that we can not at the very least surmise an ideological lean, or rule-out certain ideological leans.  In fact, I think it's just as dangerous/toxic to the discussion as saying we know everything and can peg him totally.  I think it dumbs it down, provides a dangerous false comfort, and I think people primarily do it to be agreeable, or because they truth can't ever be found anywhere else put on a narrow centrist path just as narrow as other ideologues.

I don't think we've yet to really know what this man is; we sure as hell can comfortably surmise what he is not.

[ Parent ]
And I don't think it's that relevant at all
Loughner is one guy, one psychologically disturbed guy, and he will never have the opportunity to kill again. It's clear he's not an orthodox conservative or anything else that fits neatly into a box along our bipolar political spectrum.

I agree most of the hatemongering has originated on the right. And I agree the hatemongers should take responsibility for their words, and everyone should be more conscious.

Loughner is one deranged man, the same way the weirdos who took hostages in the Discovery Channel building (less than a 15-minute drive, I might add, from where I live), drove an car loaded with weapons through California intending to kill ACLU activists, murdered George Tiller during a church service, and flew a private plane into that IRS building in Texas were deranged individuals. Their political beliefs were, like Loughner's, all over the map and too radical to ascribe to either the generally right-wing Republican Party or the generally center-left Democratic Party.

The rhetoric is more important than what each of these people believed. The Discovery Channel gunman was an ultra-radical environmentalist; Tiller's killer was just as far out to right field. They both clearly had (and have, in Roeder's case) psychological issues. I don't think it's unreasonable to think that the heated level of political discourse and the pervasive mixture of both gun culture and the language of war into political sloganeering (parodied in The Onion's 2008 intro graphic "War for the White House" and skewered on "The Daily Show" and "The Colbert Report" regularly) influenced both men to cross over from being ticking time bombs to exploding in dramatic and bloody fashion.

It doesn't matter what the guy who mows down 20 Arizonans in the parking lot of a supermarket believes in. All that matters is that he believed it was acceptable to take that action. And in case the rhetoric of Palin or anyone else contributed to that, and in case the same rhetoric might contribute to another act of senseless violence in the future, the rhetoric must change - regardless of what Jared Lee Loughner believes and regardless of his degree of mental competency.

20, center-left independent, Auckland Central resident, MD-05 voter, OR-01 native

[ Parent ]
Not orthodox
I think you mean that his politics are not orthodox, and that they are in fact heterodox.

"I'm not a member of any organized political party, I'm a Democrat!"
--  Will Rogers  
[ Parent ]
Thank you
My mistake.

20, center-left independent, Auckland Central resident, MD-05 voter, OR-01 native
[ Parent ]
Do you by any
chance have a link to support this? And was it the Democrats as a party in the district or some group that acted on behalf of them?  

"I have never deliberately given anybody hell. I just tell the truth on the opposition-and they think it's hell."--President Harry Truman. President Obama, are you listening?
[ Parent ]
Rahall
If I were him I'd watch out. There are probably more crazy people in WV than AZ, and the fact that he is Arab-American might make him an even bigger target.  
[ Parent ]
Yikes
What a sad state of affairs for our country.  This is such a horrific event, and I hope that people throughout America can learn some valuable lessons from it.

I truly hope there are no "copy-cats" with regards to Rahall or anyone else, and I hope that no one else has to suffer from any more senseless acts of violence.

Though it seems ridiculous to look for any sort of silver lining in such a situation, perhaps this will inspire our leaders, media figures, and others with high profile positions to take a step back and consider more carefully the words and images they put out.

Male, 23, NJ-12

[ Parent ]
Right this minute
I'm as worried about one of your guys being the next victim as one of our guys.  It doesn't take much to set off one nut, and this was quite a provocation.  Improved security for all reps will hopefully be a small silver lining to this horribly dark cloud.  

34, WM, Democrat, FL-11
[ Parent ]
I agree
We can't allow violence to overturn election results.  I think every state should have a law that mandates someone of the same party take over an elected office after a death of any kind.  

Libertarian secular Republican, MO-7
[ Parent ]
I keep thinking of Israel
after the assassination of Yitzak Rabin. His Labor party lost power afterwards, the peace process stopped, and their country was forever changed.
[ Parent ]
Admirable Goal, but
A kind of policy like that has bad implications. First off, parties have different factions and there's no way to guarantee some other faction won't win the seat. Second, it pushes our system further down the road of voting for the party and not the person (that happens a lot in practice, I know, but one of the cornerstones of our system has always been that we select living, breathing people to represent us, rather than just making ideology selections as in party-list-voting systems)

What I would support is something like having a congressman's Chief of Staff as the designated interim successor in the event of a vacancy. Presumably the CoS shares many of the views and priorities of the departed lawmaker, and that would be a good way to ensure that the replacement is chosen by the person the people elected, rather than some obscure party boss.

Moderate Libertarian Republican, MA-8 (college) / MD-7 (hometown)

[ Parent ]
Yeah
They should, for Congressional districts, make the party of that representative appoint a member until the special election.  
[ Parent ]
I had a former Congressman
told me that the fact that every member of the house has to be elected is what makes it so special. I can see a lot of members being opposed to changing things for that very reason  

TX-13,22,Dem
[ Parent ]
There's a slightly complicated problem with that.
It would be most appropriate in multi-party systems where each party has a more consistent ideology and agenda, and one could more accurately tie an elected official to their party.

However, in the United States, the two-party system causes the two major parties to basically function as coalitions, with members of a party often disagreeing with particular parts of the party line.

party: Democratic, ideology: moderate, district: CT-01

[ Parent ]
It's only a place holder
like Ted Kaufman. If party elders pick the place holder it'll suffice for two years.
[ Parent ]
Are you going to make the place-holder
ineligible for election to a full term?

party: Democratic, ideology: moderate, district: CT-01
[ Parent ]
Why would that be necessary?
If it's the kind of person that fits the district well then she/he  should be able to ran. I though the point you were making is that the party wouldn't choose a person that fits the district, if they do then I don't see the problem with him running, if they don't then she/he won't win anyway and probably wold voluntarily step down.  
[ Parent ]
It shouldn't even be for two years
Make it like MA, where there is an appointment, but a special election within a few months.  
[ Parent ]
"your guys" and "our guys"
Maybe a Green Party member in Germany isn't one of "my guys", but anyone that attacks innocent Americans has attacked "my guys".  I hope and think we'd all fight back just as hard to prevent any physical attack on any member of Congress, no matter what party.  I'm sure you didn't mean to suggest otherwise, but continued talk that divides can't be good for moving forward.
[ Parent ]
OK, I'm calling "weird" on that.
It's a two-party system.  GOPVOTER is a Republican.  I'm a Democrat.  Everybody understood my meaning (I think), and the comment was the polar opposite of divisive.  

Pretty sure he and I have close to 100% consensus on the broad issue of violence in politics, but we have not become members of the same party because of that.

34, WM, Democrat, FL-11

[ Parent ]
well
Schuler said he's going to carry a gun with him at all times, maybe Rahall will too. Seriously though, I don't want to see this country become like the wild fucking west, it's clear what we need to do is just tone down our rhetoric and maybe improve psychiatric services - I mean, why was this guy not getting more help for his issues?

21, Male, Democrat, MD-02 (home/registered), MD-05 (college)
[ Parent ]
Why not more psychiatric services?
There is a very, very strong bias against treating people without their explicit permission.  

Even setting aside the morals, it makes extra sense for some mental illnesses, because the medication alone isn't sufficient -- the patient has to cooperate if there is to be any hope of success.  Being able to even pretend that the treatment is coerced therefore makes it less likely to succeed.

Unfortunately, that leads to fairly poor outcomes for diseases where the the patient doesn't want to admit to having a disease (most mental illnesses and addictions) and horrible outcomes where denial of the disease is itself a symptom (such as schizophrenia and related diseases).

I do believe the situation could be greatly improved, but doing so would require the sort of subtlety that isn't easy to achieve in legislation.

[ Parent ]
And from getting a degree in
Justice and Peace Studies, I can tell you right now that Schuler saying he's going to carry a gun with himself at all times is not the way to go.  But, my Political Science degree says that that is gold.  

Degrees in Political Science and Justice and Peace Studies, one tells me how it should be, one tells me how it is.

[ Parent ]
I'm really worried about Rep. Rahall
It seems too optimistic to expect there won't be any copycat attacks.

20, center-left independent, Auckland Central resident, MD-05 voter, OR-01 native
[ Parent ]
Especially
during the campaign Rahall's opponent attacked his Arab heritage.  

19, Male, Independent, CA-12
[ Parent ]
I'm remembering that commercial...
And it struck me so much as an insinuation that Rep. Rahall is somehow "dangerous". It really disturbed me as an American.

20, center-left independent, Auckland Central resident, MD-05 voter, OR-01 native
[ Parent ]
which one?
I dont remember it being brought up and I'd like to see it.
[ Parent ]
Check it out...

Really grody ad by the West Virginia Conservative Foundation.

20, center-left independent, Auckland Central resident, MD-05 voter, OR-01 native

[ Parent ]
The
shooter's been charged with murder, attempted murder, and attempted murder of a member of Congress. Investigators also say they seized messages suggesting the shooter planned to assassinate Giffords.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/...

19, Male, Independent, CA-12

What would be the
Punishment if he if found guilty on all charges? Death penalty?  
[ Parent ]
I would assume so
Because of the brutal nature of the attack and the victims (Congresswoman, judge, young girl, elderly women), the prosecutors would almost certainly seek the death penalty. This killer reminds me a lot of Tim McVeigh, who was executed for bombing the OKC federal building.

20, CD MA-03/NH-01/MA-08
[ Parent ]
do you think
giffords will change her mind on the second amendment (assuming her brain is functioning, which I really hope it continues to do as well as it was before the attack.)  she could have a carolyn mccarthy type situation.

18, Dem, CA-14 (home) CA-09 (college, next year). social libertarian, economic liberal, fiscal conservative.   Everybody should put age and CD here. :)
[ Parent ]
This situation could change a number of things.


19, Self Appointed Chair of the SSP Gay Caucus (I claimed it first :p), male, Dem, IN-09 (College IN-09) (Raised IL-03, IL-09)
[ Parent ]
Assuming a sufficent medial recovery
I think even pro-NRA voters would have difficulty opposing a Giffords change of heart on this.

However, if Senatorial / National aspirations remain on the horizon, I think it's best for her to hold firm to the "courage of her convictions" and remain pro-gun. It would make her into the American "Iron Lady".  

[ Parent ]
I would have so much respect for that...
Not that I'm going to get terribly upset with her if she comes out in favor of expanding gun control.

20, center-left independent, Auckland Central resident, MD-05 voter, OR-01 native
[ Parent ]
Gun control position changes
Or it could give her the moral standing to argue for some sort of compromise, where guns are not banned, but licensing requirements are tightened and gun owners are held accountable for securing their guns.

The catch is that it still might not have helped in this case.  Maybe the college could have added him to a Do Not Sell Firearms list until he got the evaluation, but other than that ... his gun was legally purchased, and the purchase didn't even taken advantage of loopholes.

[ Parent ]
The extended clip he used...
...would have been banned under the assault weapons ban, so yeah, it would have made a difference.
[ Parent ]
There is so much room for compromise on gun law
it's downright pathetic.  It really has become that any legislation in favor of a gun law is unAmerican.  The NRA control many of our less-urban Dem seats, they hold them accountable and they win because of it.  I personally think they are the most powerful lobby in DC, with AIPAC second only because people care more about guns than Israel.
[ Parent ]
Politically speaking,
I agree. I made a kind of sarcastic comment yesterday that the media wasn't portraying her as some sort of dirty liberal but instead one of those wonderful moderate or centrist Democrats. As long as she doesn't completely switch her position (and just so we are clear, I am not saying she should or should not do that), she will only reinforce that portrayal, which will be good for her (hopeful) future political career. She can even move towards a slightly more enhanced gun control position while still being seen as a gun rights person.  

"I have never deliberately given anybody hell. I just tell the truth on the opposition-and they think it's hell."--President Harry Truman. President Obama, are you listening?
[ Parent ]
That'll be interesting
The same people saying the cause of this is just mental instibility being the ones who will demand death. That is sick.
[ Parent ]
Wonderful
the dirt bags at the Westboro Baptist Church plan to picket the funerals of the shooting victims. And what's even more sickening is that they don't even try to hide their happiness at the thought of innocent people, women and children included being gunned down in open daylight:

Your federal judge is dead and your (fag-promoting, baby-killing, proud-sinner) Congresswoman fights for her life. God is avenging Himself on this rebellious house! WBC prays for your destruction--more shooters, more dead carcasses piling up, young, old, leader and commoner--all. Your doom is upon you!

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/...

If there was ever a reason to repeal the first amendment, these dirt bags would be a shinning reason why....

19, Male, Independent, CA-12

Soldiers, Elizabeth Edwards, Gay kids, Innocent victims.
They will never stop.

19, Self Appointed Chair of the SSP Gay Caucus (I claimed it first :p), male, Dem, IN-09 (College IN-09) (Raised IL-03, IL-09)
[ Parent ]
We will defeat them
The hatred of a few is no match for the civility of many.

Each member of this so-called church will die alone. While they came uninvited to our soldiers' funerals, and to the funerals of our fellow Americans who died unjustly for their politics or their sexuality, their funerals will be attended by no one. They will die and be forgotten, and America will tower over their lonely graves.

20, center-left independent, Auckland Central resident, MD-05 voter, OR-01 native

[ Parent ]
Who cares?
These people are so predictable as to be irrelevant. Might as well write an article on how rocks are heavy, how the sky is (generally) blue, or how David Vitter is a hypocritical scumbag. Those particular subjects are just as deserving of media attention as these morons are.  

Independent Socialist & Chair of SSP Cranky Indianian Hoosier Caucus, IN-09
[ Parent ]
Honestly
the best thing to do is ignore these people. They live on getting attention. The best thing to do is not give them any. Good luck telling that to the media though....

Proud member of the Indiana Democratic Party from IN-9.  
[ Parent ]
The media feeds them
I wish I was important enough to be on MSNBC, Fox, or CNN in an interview when they are talking about these people. The media feeds them by reporting on their every move. If the media and America just ignored them, they would stop.  
[ Parent ]
I was shocked to learn
that Fred Phelps had some involvement/affiliation with the Democratic party in Kansas in the 1980s. (And I use those words lightly.) I get that the parties have changed, and I don't mean imply that he would have had a more natural home in the Republican party mainstream at any point, but I just don't get it.  

"I have never deliberately given anybody hell. I just tell the truth on the opposition-and they think it's hell."--President Harry Truman. President Obama, are you listening?
[ Parent ]
his natural home
...is on Jerry Springer. He may have convinced himself that he's doing the right thing by some twisted rationale, but I think it's more likely that he doesn't actually believe anything, he just hates people. I think he's a pure sociopath and an exhibitionist, and his one goal in life is to antagonize as many people as possible.

41, Ind, CA-05
[ Parent ]
He's the perfect test case
for the ACLU's traditional position that we have to resolutely uphold the rights of hateful people to spew out hateful speech - a position I completely agree with and support.

"I'm not a member of any organized political party, I'm a Democrat!"
--  Will Rogers  
[ Parent ]
concur
Without Phelps today, I believe that a substantial part of the Republican party, perhaps a majority, would take up his mantle in a very few years (perhaps less).

John Stuart Mill was right.

[ Parent ]
What do you mean about a majority of the Republican Party
taking up his mantle? It sounds wrong to me, but I don't know what you mean.

"I'm not a member of any organized political party, I'm a Democrat!"
--  Will Rogers  
[ Parent ]
Let me rephrase
I think Phelps keeps wingnuts from moving the Overton window beyond a certain point. Without Phelps getting such prominent airplay, there would be fewer limits on how far right Rs could go.
[ Parent ]
I can't think
of any other motivation for his or his organization's actions. It's really sickening.  

"I have never deliberately given anybody hell. I just tell the truth on the opposition-and they think it's hell."--President Harry Truman. President Obama, are you listening?
[ Parent ]
IIRC correctly
he also did terrific things as a civil right lawyer.  What a fall...

34, WM, Democrat, FL-11
[ Parent ]
These people are attention whores
They're never going to go away as long as the media continues to publicize their idiocy.
[ Parent ]
They are the case study for how far the 1st amendment should go
They will never go away so long as we as a society and a court system allow them to be here.  And if the courts dont say fuck off, well, I think the people could agree to some sort of constitutional amendment.  But at the polarization point this country is at, it'd be hard to unite us against what is becoming such a common evil.
[ Parent ]
You mean, other than the First Amendment
That amendment addresses people's rights to be assholes in public for political reasons. Being an asshole, or even an evil dick, is not a crime.

"I'm not a member of any organized political party, I'm a Democrat!"
--  Will Rogers  
[ Parent ]
his political affiliations
Loughner may have been a bit of a lefty.
http://blogs.phoenixnewtimes.c...
Previously refuted
By any measure, support of the gold standard and anti-government views are right-wing.

To put it mildly, it's a strange first comment for a new user.

[ Parent ]
Remains to be seen
But regardless the larger point about overheated rhetoric MUST stand.
[ Parent ]
So one person who knew him five years ago
Called him a lefty. Doesn't mean shit.

And also if the Phoenix New Times said the sky was blue I'd want to see their sources. They did get most of the Arpaio/Thomas stuff right, but overall they're only interested in passing on the sensational snippets of stories and then cranking the volume up to 11.

22, Democrat, AZ-01
Peace. Love. Gabby.

[ Parent ]
If
If people don't see why I'm a little irked, it's this kind of intellectual dishonesty and deception that's been doing it.
[ Parent ]
AZ-08: Rep. Gabby Giffords Shot by Gunman | 445 comments

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