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NY-19: Hall Under 50, and Trailing Chief Challenger

by: DavidNYC

Tue Sep 14, 2010 at 12:25 PM EDT


Public Policy Polling for Daily Kos (9/11-12, likely voters, no trendlines):

John Hall (D-inc): 42
Nan Hayworth (R): 44
Undecided: 14

John Hall (D-inc): 42
Neil DiCarlo (R): 39
Undecided: 19
(MoE: 4%)

We decided to test this race because we thought it might serve as a helpful bellwether. Dem Rep. John Hall is a sophomore, first elected in 2006 to a district that had long been GOP-held. He sits in a suburban swing district (45% Kerry, 51% Obama) and has a progressive voting record. He's drawn a strong opponent in Nan Hayworth, a Republican with a moderate enough record that could have earned her a serious teabagging, but which she was nonetheless able to avoid. Hayworth has also been a good fundraiser - she's given her campaign half-a-million bucks, but she's also raised more than $700K from individuals. Overall, she's narrowly edged Hall, whose fundraising has proceeded at just 62% of his 2008 pace (to date).

In other words, this contest resembles many others in a number of ways, though in does stand out in certain respects (Hayworth's relative sanity chief among them). And if this race is indeed representative, then it's not looking pretty out there. Yes, on its face, the poll shows things more-or-less tied up, but 42% is not where you want to be if you're an incumbent - especially when your opponent is unknown to 50% of the electorate. Among those who do know her, Hayworth sports a pretty decent 29-21 favorability rating, while Hall is struggling at a weak 39-43. In other words, Hayworth has room to grow, while Hall seems pretty firmly rooted at 42%. (That's why we included Neil DiCarlo, an unknown and generally disliked Some Dude who will likely be turned into paste in today's primary. Hall does no better against him than against Hayworth.)

There's a broader picture here, too. Pollster Tom Jensen elaborates:

[I]ntensity isn't really the issue. We're finding an electorate in NY-19 that supported Barack Obama by a point, not much of a drop from his 3 point win there. ... The problem in NY-19 is that Obama voters have soured on him to a much greater extent than they have nationally. Only 75% of his supporters still approve of the job he's doing and his loss of support is rubbing off on Hall. With the Obama voters who now disapprove of or are ambivalent toward him Nan Hayworth has a 56-28 lead. Nationally our last poll still found 86% of Obama voters approving of him so this is an unusually disenchanted district.

If we're lucky, then this might be another way in which New York's 19th CD differs from others - namely, the fact that Obama is doing 10 points worse here among his own voters than he is nationally. Still, while things look tough for Hall right now, he does have some things going for him. For one, the Democrats at the top of the ballot in NY look set to dominate. For another, he'll also have help from the DCCC (which still, thankfully, has more cash than the NRCC) - though advertising dollars won't go as far on NYC's super-expensive TV stations. And he may yet turn in a strong fundraising quarter.

Obviously, this is just one survey, but be aware that Hall trailed in his own internal polling in 2006 all the way until the election. Those polls nonetheless portended trouble for incumbent Sue Kelly, whom Hall knocked off by a 51-49 margin. If this poll is accurate, then, John Hall also has a very tough row to hoe - and so, it would seem, do Dems in similar districts around the country.

DavidNYC :: NY-19: Hall Under 50, and Trailing Chief Challenger
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I'll repeat what I said at DK.
This was a dumb district to pick as a bell-weather right now. The GOP primary is in full-swing, so they are getting more press coverage and their base is more fired up. If you wanted a bell-weather district to poll, you should have picked one where the general election actually started or polled this one in 2-3 weeks.

All you are doing with this poll is helping the "Democrats are doomed" narrative. Not sure why a progressive website is anxious to pile-on that narrative.  


Disagree
No one's been paying attention to primaries in NY. I'm a political junkie and had never heard of DiCarlo.

And it's impossible to pick a "perfect" bellweather. Can't have a Southern district, can't be a Blue Dog, can't be too rural (for polling difficulty), PVI can't be out of whack, no personal issues, etc. No one's going to be thrilled with it, but then why bother polling at all.


[ Parent ]
But are the dynamics of NY-19...
Just like the dynamics of many dozens more House races?

Or are we freaking out too much over one poll in one district?

Yes, Virginia, there ARE progressives in Nevada!
24, gay male, Democrat, NV-03 (or 04?)


[ Parent ]
Who's Freaking Out?
This is just one data point. I would only use it as a starting point not an end point.

But if I'm a candidate at Hall's level with a down-the-line voting record against a reasonable Republican candidate in PVI R+3 or worse, I'm not feeling too good.

OTOH, if those factors don't apply to me. I may have a race in front of me, but I should have known that.


[ Parent ]
I think suburban-to-suburban is the apt comparison, and this is a key district...
...in that regard.

Over time I've been taking more seriously SSPer Ryan's theory that where Dems get killed this year will be the purple suburbs.  I don't think he's alone, just the loudest, and others here have made the same or similar point that reliably party-line Dems in purple seats are the most vulnerable of our lot.

Hall fits that description perfectly.  So yes I think this is bellwether.

Look, all the analysts now say we WILL lose the House, so this isn't surprising.

I think what's putting a lot of SSPers and Democrats everywhere into disbelief is that it hurts so much to think of some of our favorite people losing.  A number is one thing, we can adjust expectations and emotions to the idea of losing "45 seats."  But then putting 45 real names to that number is heart-sinking.  I know it is for me, and that's what will be hard for me on election night.  The number of seats lost won't be easy, but I'm braced for the number.  But seeing the names of the defeated will be much harder, and it's not something I can prepare for emotionally in advance.

43, male, Indian-American, Democrat, VA-10


[ Parent ]
Suburban comparisons
Suburban-to-suburban comparisons work to a point.  I feel very comfortable comparing NYC suburban districts to any other suburban district along the Northeast Corridor, but I would not extend it too far from the Northeast.  What this poll tells us is that the Connecticut seats the Democrats flipped in the last few cycles are potentially vulnerable too.  

Additionally, this poll should not shock anyone.  Remember the Republicans did perform very well in the most recent county elections in Westchester and Nassau and elected a new NYC City Council member from Queens.  Subsequent State House special election results confirm this as the Republicans have picked up seats in the NYC suburbs.  

What this poll should compel us all to do is to look at the purple suburban seats harder.  I suspect we all need to consider some suburban seats that even I would not have looked at a month or two as being potentially in play.

23, male, center-right cynical Republican, PA-7


[ Parent ]
If I was Steve Israel or Carolyn McCarthy this poll would make me a little nervous
The Long Island NY districts are kind of similar to NY-19 in my opinion.

If Westchester is trending red, LI probably is too.

While I fully believe both Israel and McCarthy will be re-elected this is definetly not the cycle for them to have their re-election campaigns on autopilot.

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[ Parent ]
They need to fight to say the least
If either of them are flatfooted, they have a good chance of losing.  I would rate both races as likely Democratic, but its plausible they could fall.

I would guess that Long Island would go red before Westchester though.

23, male, center-right cynical Republican, PA-7


[ Parent ]
Israel is fine, McCarthy worries me a wee bit
Steve Israel (NY-2) is facing irrelevant challengers and Suffolk didn't lurch rightward as much as Nassau or the lower Hudson Valley in 2009. His district includes part of Nassau, but it's a rather Democratic section. Israel is relatively young, energetic, and generally does his homework. He won't be caught sleeping, so I think he is absolutely safe.

McCarthy is one I've been watching, because one of her challengers actually does have some money (Frank Scaturro) and she's entirely in Nassau, where we were obliterated in 2009. Now some of that trainwreck stemmed from people underestimating the wave, but that's the sort of thing that could conceivably happen to McCarthy, too.

The other thing that catches me eye about NY-4 (McCarthy's district) are the precinct-by-precinct breakdowns. She represents a lot of election districts where McCain got in the high 50s or low 60s; these are reliably white districts. She also represents a lot of districts that are more diverse, where Obama had very high margins. I fear that the turnout will plummet in the latter while staying especially high in the former.

29, Male, Dem, NY-20


[ Parent ]
NY-4
I think NY-4 is a poster child for a district where the Democrats could easily lose if they are caught flatfooted.  The Republicans lost several seats that are arguably just as Republican as her seat is Democratic because the candidates did not prepare for a strong challenger.

23, male, center-right cynical Republican, PA-7

[ Parent ]
Yep.
And it probably doesn't help that McCarthy is several cycles removed from anything resembling a tough race...yet her percentages have not been sky-high. The GOP floor there is pretty high.

29, Male, Dem, NY-20

[ Parent ]
Israel is on the air, I've seen online his 1st TV ad. Don't know about McCarthy. (nm)
nm

43, male, Indian-American, Democrat, VA-10

[ Parent ]
The republicans have been paying attention
to the primaries and I am sure they've gotten coverage on the news.

And while there is no such thing as a "perfect" bellweather district, polling a district in the middle of a primary is just dumb politics. Even more so, when a progressive website is just feeding the narrative that the "Democrats are Doomed".


[ Parent ]
This doesn't surprise me
I moved NY-19 into the red column about a month ago.  R+3 districts in an environment like this, for incumbents that vote 100% democratic for the most part, districts like these are going to be very tough holds.

23, Male, Democrat, OH-13

Not necessarily...
As I've said before, it all comes down to the quality of the candidate and how well he/she connects with constituents... And how much is being invested in field, and how strong the message is. I've never really been a fan of generically applying one line of analysis to an entire set of races across the country.

NY-19 will ultimately come down to whether John Hall can make those connections (and whether NY Dems can get strong turnout for Schumer, Gillibrand, & Cuomo, and then get that to help down ballot).

Yes, Virginia, there ARE progressives in Nevada!
24, gay male, Democrat, NV-03 (or 04?)


[ Parent ]
This is true
Gillibrand has strong support in upstate New York, and Cuomo will almost certainly bring in large coattails.  The GOP's only chance in this race is to localize it, since the top of the ballot is only going to hurt them.  At this point it seems like it's still a generic R vs generic D given how many undecideds there are.

[ Parent ]
Disappointing, but
between the strength at the top of the ticket and DCCC resources, I think Hall can pull this out.  He's the type of congressman we need more of.

Agreed on all points.
He's a keeper and the combination of Schumer, Cuomo, and Gillibrand at the top of the ticket should help him.

Follow the elections in Georgia at the 2010 Georgia Race Tracker.

[ Parent ]
A reason for skepticism
is that neither party seems to be acting like this race is top tier.  Wasn't on the NRCC's initial targeted advertising list of about 40 districts, nor was it on the DCCC's list of about 60 districts.

I'm trusting public polling less and less and trying to focus on how campaigns and parties are behaving, including financial investment, leaked internals, and the reactions thereto.  Those kinds of factors are making a lot more sense to me right now than public polling.

34, WM, Democrat, FL-11


NYC Media Market
Covers most of this district, and it's very expensive to advertise there.

I still feel reasonably optimistic about this race, as this is one of those ancestrally Republican districts where things have been trending in our direction for years, finally to break through in a big way the last couple cycles.  

36, M, Democrat, MD-03


[ Parent ]
This was the NY district I thought was most likely to be an upset GOP win
The Westchester County Ex race in 2009 was a real shocker. Most people thought Spano was a lock for re-election and he lost pretty handily.

Turnout was a big factor in the 2009 elections. Dems stayed home while the GOP vote came out in force.

The blowouts at the top of the ticket this year will work against Dems when it comes to turnout in this years NYS  elections.

The angry Tea Party will show up come hell or high water but the new and younger Obama voters of 2008 might sit out 2010 figuring Gov race is a done deal.

Also keep in mind if voters in NY are "angry" over pocketbook issues where they are angry is in the suburbs like Westchester.

Hayworth is a good non threating female candidate running on pocket book issues.

If there is a swing against Dems and Obama it is in places like NY-19 where it is occuring.

I can see Hall losing this while other so called endanger upstate NY Dems manage to hang on somehow.

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Good analysis
I think its plausible that the Dems lose a seat like this and hold on to some upstate seats.

23, male, center-right cynical Republican, PA-7

[ Parent ]
Opening up the check book
Big fan of Congressman Hall. It looks like I'm going to have to open up the check book. I think he'll pull this out in the end, but it sucks to have this be so close.

23, Male, PA-05 (summer) PA-12 (winter)

Interesting math here...
is how the 14% undecided will split.

8% of Democrats are undecided, but of those that have decided, 79% go for Hall and 13% go for Hayworth.  (Democrats make up 37% of demographics of the sample.

16% of Republicans are undecided, but of those that have decided, 14% go for Hall and 70% for Hayworth. (Republicans make up 38% of the sample.)

17% of independents/other are undecided, but of those that have decided, 30% go for Hall and 53% for Hayworth. (Independents/other make up 25% of the sample.)

With this info, there must be some way to tell how the overall 14% undecided will split, especially if we assume the undecideds will break down in similar ways as their partisan identification has done so far in the poll.  


GOP Oversample
Seems like a reasonable breakdown, with perhaps one exception...are we really looking an electorate where, in 2010, Republicans outnumber Democrats in NY-19? Certainly that was historically the case in this district, but I would have thought Dems would have the edge by now given the long-term shifts....

36, M, Democrat, MD-03

[ Parent ]
I can see it being even, or thereabouts
Until recently, the area was Republican-dominated, and Bush did win 54% here just 6 years ago, with some moderate Rockefeller-type Republicans supporting Kerry. Democrats may have caught up in registration numbers over the past few years, but a lot of those new voters may not show up this time. So an even R/D split is reasonable.

I wonder how much the three Democratic blowouts atop the ticket will help Hall. Schumer and Gillibrand are surprisingly both underwater with their approval here, and the lack of interest in these and the governor's race may give unenthused Democrats no reason to go to the polls to save Hall.

20, CD MA-03/NH-01/MA-08


[ Parent ]
Yes
http://www.elections.state.ny....

Registration is almost even; only 4,000 or so more Democrats than Republicans.


[ Parent ]
Okay... I did math.
By my calculations and basing itself on the proportions of how the different partisan identifications have already decided for either Hall or Hayworth, the 14% undecided in the overall poll would break down with final results similar to this: 50.84% for Hayworth and 46.43% for Hall.

Not good for Hall.

The only real refutation I could give for Hall is if NY-19 has more Democrats than Republicans, then maybe he could pull a PA-12, Mark Critz-like victory.


[ Parent ]
Hall's great hope is top-of-ticket coattails......
I think coattails are plausible.

I know some people here say that the blowouts at the top will actually HURT us, but I think that's wrong.  After all, if the top races were closer, wouldn't that just motivate both sides even more?  As it is, we have Democratic voters CONFIDENT about their top-ticket races, and Republicans downtrodden about them, and that HELPS turnout for us and hurts turnout for Republicans.  We're a LOT better off than if the Governor's race or Senate seat was winnable for the GOP, in which case their turnout would be boosted more than ours.

The fact that we're looking good for holding the state Senate also helps us, and further deteriorates GOP morale.

Ultimately the House races are the only thing Republicans have to feel good about for this November.  That might be enough, and we might lose a couple seats.  But make no mistake, New York Republicans aren't going to have the turnout advantage their counterparts enjoy in the upper Midwest.

43, male, Indian-American, Democrat, VA-10


[ Parent ]
The problem with that is the REASON why Dems are blowing out Top of the Tickets
Lets be clear the reason why the Dems are blowing out the top of the ticket is NOT because New Yorkers love the way the Dems have been running the state for the last 2 yrs, but rather its because the GOP completely abdicated it's responsibilty for putting credible candidates up for Gov and Sen.

Cuomo has co-opted the GOP message and is running a "change Albany" campaign. Question is change it from who? Dems control every office in NY.

Cuomo is bacially winning by running against the Democrats who run Albany.

I cant see Cuomo having too many coattails. Maily because I can totally see many angry anti-Albany Indies, Dems and even some GOP voting for Cuomo as an agent for change while switching back to vote for the GOP as change agents downballot.

The worry for Dems is that if this is a real blowout on the top only the most motivated voters show up to the polls and as we have seen the most motivated voters are on the right.

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[ Parent ]
They're angry at a handful of Dems it would seem
The same ones that seized power for the GOP.  Parlor games like that never play well, but Cuomo's going to motivate people to vote for him, or at least demotivate the Republicans from voting.  I honestly can't imagine many Republicans that would either split their votes, or even bother to show up in significant numbers to support Lazio/Paladino or Hall's challenger.  Dems have more reason to turn out, at the very least.

[ Parent ]
Punted to the Dems
Punting the top of the ballot races might be a blessing in disguise.  Democrats are not going to turn out in hordes for done deals where as the Republicans generally seem motivated considering their punting of the top tier races.

This leads me to wonder if the NY Republicans might retake the State Senate and pickup Attorney General.  If turnout is low, the Republicans have the potential to do both especially with how hated Albany is and the lackluster Democratic candidates for AG.

23, male, center-right cynical Republican, PA-7


[ Parent ]
People are misreading Cuomo's strength
Cuomo is having no positive impact on Democratic enthusiasm whatsoever - he's running a center-right campaign, for one thing, and that doesn't do a lot for the base here. While highly respected, he is not viewed as a hero in the way that Spitzer was as attorney general. The one thing that might get Dems more enthused about Cuomo would be if Lazio or Paladino started closing the gap and made that race competitive.

People like Schumer, but no one's voting for him who wouldn't otherwise be at the polls that day. They're getting used to Gillibrand, but no one's turning out for her.

The GOP shrewdly punted the top of the ballot, as one commenter put it, to allow them to focus on winning locally. They employed this tactic in reverse in the Hudson Valley in last year's local elections - leaving inner-city council and county legislator seats unopposed to minimize turnout for local Dem favorites. This aided them in winning the Westchester executive and Dutchess comptroller positions.

In general, NY GOPers have some state senate seats they think they can retake - most notably SD-3 in Suffolk - and a gazillion Congressionals they're enthused about. And they're really excited about AG and Comptroller, which they may well win in November.


29, Male, Dem, NY-20


[ Parent ]
In other words...
...Ryan is spot-on in his reading of NY.  

29, Male, Dem, NY-20

[ Parent ]
He has the fortune of having the chance of insulation by the top of the ticket
Democrats in the Governor's race and the Senate races are going to perform very well and that means a lot of Democrats are going to be drawn out to the polls. That will be Hall's security here, it may or may not be enough, though.

24, male, African-American, CA-24, Democrat. Chair of the SSP Black Caucus.

Warning
Off-topic discussion is not allowed here. This is precisely why we have two open threads a day on SSP.

[ Parent ]
Not surprised
Terrible approvals for Obama, Schumer, and Gillibrand. I think this seat is gone despite the close poll numbers.

Those Schumer and Gillibrand numbers
do raise some questions. Both candidates are polling way ahead in their elections even according to Rasmussen, so would they have such low approval in NY-19?

As I have said repeatedly, PPP does not have a record in house districts comparable to the one they have in statewide elections. Keep that in mind whenever they do a CD poll.


[ Parent ]
It is not necessarily Democratic territory
This district is R+3 if I am correct.  Suburban/Exurban district that is R+3 sounds like territory where the Democrats running for Senate would be viewed negatively.

This does raise the question if people are going to run to the polls for either of them.  People might support them, but it is such a lukewarm support they just do not have the motivation to vote.  I cite the Westchester County Executive's race as a great example of something like this happening.  This also explains the enthusiasm gap not being as strong here.

23, male, center-right cynical Republican, PA-7


[ Parent ]
Some Dudes
Well, Schumer and Gillibrand are running statewide against really awful "dudes" . Hall is in a swing district vs a very good candidate in Hayworth. This poll didn't change my mind, it just reinforced how I felt about Hall's chances.  

[ Parent ]
If this is the case....
the Schumer-Cuomo-Gillibrand trifecta had better have a strong GOTV operations up and down the ballot.

Ad hoc, ad loc and quid pro quo!
So little time, so much to know!


Gillibrand could lose this district
Kerry won New York 58-40 in 2004 but lost NY-19 by 9 points. So even if she wins statewide by a healthy margin, she could lose a handful of districts like these.

20, CD MA-03/NH-01/MA-08

[ Parent ]
But she is not an NYC Democrat.
She would have greater suburban appeal, wouldn't she?

Ad hoc, ad loc and quid pro quo!
So little time, so much to know!


[ Parent ]
Suburban Revolt
She would not be popular if the suburbanites are revolting.  I would not be shocked if her numbers were not great as they should be in NY-20 either.

23, male, center-right cynical Republican, PA-7

[ Parent ]
Perhaps, but she is no doubt more liked there than Schumer.


Ad hoc, ad loc and quid pro quo!
So little time, so much to know!


[ Parent ]
But she is not an NYC Democrat.
She would have greater suburban appeal, wouldn't she?

Ad hoc, ad loc and quid pro quo!
So little time, so much to know!


[ Parent ]
40% of the district makes
at least $100,000 per year. Even by suburban standards that seems incredibly high.  

Upper-Middle / Upper Revolt
Further evidence of what I have been saying for months.  The Democrats are losing upper-middle / upper class voters.  The voters who started voting Democratic in the Bush years over values issues are having buyers remorse.  This was actually fairly predictable.  

This furthers my point from earlier that the Democrats should be really worried in Connecticut.  If this seat could go easily Republican, the Republicans definitely have a shot in western Connecticut.

23, male, center-right cynical Republican, PA-7


[ Parent ]
Teacher in Westchester can make over $100,000 a year
Cost of living in this district is much higher than it is in other parts of the country. A teacher with 15 to 20 years in the system can easily make over $100,000.

These voters are the ones getting squeezes with higher local and state taxes plus increases in commuting costs (MTA fare hikes).

It is districts like this where 40% make over $100k a year that the "raising taxes on the rich" agenda can backfire on Dems.

In NY-14 you can easily have an upper middle class teacher with 2 kids married to a laywer making a combined salary over $250,000 a year yet struggling to get by and pay the mortgage.


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[ Parent ]
Point of snapping
You have to wonder if we have reached a point where these people have snapped electorally under such a tax burden.  If they have, it is a bad time to be running as a Democrat in such an area.

23, male, center-right cynical Republican, PA-7

[ Parent ]
Is there a difference between these Northeast higher income suburbs
and similar West coast suburbs?

Is the presumed reaction from upper middle class voters in the NE being echoed in say the higher income SF/LA/Seattle suburbs?


[ Parent ]
i would say probably
as a resident of one, yes. but these districts are 10+ points more democratic, especially the bay area ones.  i'd say the only dems to watch in california in areas like these are loretta sanchez and maybe adam schiff, although he's well liked and not super liberal.  In washington, look at larsen, and i guess keep an eye on inslee/adam smith.  david wu in oregon as well

18, Dem, CA-14 (home) CA-09 (college, next year). social libertarian, economic liberal, fiscal conservative.   Everybody should put age and CD here. :)

[ Parent ]
however
all of these i mentioned but larsen are long shots

18, Dem, CA-14 (home) CA-09 (college, next year). social libertarian, economic liberal, fiscal conservative.   Everybody should put age and CD here. :)

[ Parent ]
Huh?
"In NY-14 you can easily have an upper middle class teacher with 2 kids married to a laywer making a combined salary over $250,000 a year yet struggling to get by and pay the mortgage"

Whatever.  I think you should cry somewhere else about hurting your "rich people".  I'm more concerned about the folks who can't feed, shelter, and clothe their children.  Last time I checked, not many families making more than $250,000 had this problem.

40, male, Democrat, NC-04


[ Parent ]
That's easy to say in North Carolina
but cost of living is much higher in NY-19. To put it in perspective in Mount Kisco, NY the avg home lists for over $800,000. In NC-04 the avg home in Durham, NC lists for about $230,000.

Take a look at these maps to compare home prices in the 2 areas:
http://www.trulia.com/home_pri...

http://www.trulia.com/home_pri...

Also local taxes are much higher in NY-19 State income tax ranges from 6% to 8% in NY-14, sales tax run about 7% and average property tax in Westchester, County NY is $8,404 a year, or nearly five times the national average of $1,854.

It just cost a lot more to live there and peoples salary doesnt go nearly as far.

The issue is not about crying for the upper middle class vs helping poor people. The issue is that this is a wealthy Red district that went Blue in 2006 that is now Red again.

If the Dems hope to keep this seat in 2010 they need to know and understand why this is happening.

Somehow I dont think sticking your fingers in your ears to the concern of these voters and telling the 40% of residents in NY-19 who make over $100k a year to go to hell because we got poor folks elsewhere isnt going to be a winning campaign strategy for the Dems.

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[ Parent ]
Waste of money
Would have much preferred a Senate poll of Wisconsin and possibly West Virginia.


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