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100% Chance of Pain For House Democrats: GOP Pollster

by: James L.

Thu Aug 26, 2010 at 10:17 PM EDT


The American Action Forum is back with a new batch of House polls. (They released their first dozen last week.) One major caveat, though: as pointed out in the comments section (!) of Hotline on Call, the ballot head-to-head questions in each poll were buried under several thermometer-style questions on Obama, Pelosi, and healthcare reform:

Those American Action Forum polls are designed to prime respondents into selecting Republican candidates. Instead of starting off with the ballot-test question, they start by asking if people think the country is on the right or wrong track, do they support/oppose health care reform, and their fav/unfav opinion of Obama & Pelosi (not Boehner and Bush, of course). Look, the Democrats are going to lose a lot of seats, and they will lose some of these seats in this poll, but the most credible way to conduct a general election poll is to start by asking who the respondent is voting for, because that is the one question that will actually be on a ballot. At least I give credit to these Republicans for showing the questions they asked.

That's absolutely right. For any poll to maintain its credibility, the toplines need to be asked at the start (or at least, no later than right after the favorables, as PPP does it).

That said, we can still take a look at the toplines with a grain of salt.

Ayres, McHenry & Associates (R) for the American Action Forum (8/16-21, likely voters, MoE: ±4.9%):

IA-03:

Leonard Boswell (D-inc): 41
Brad Zaun (R): 51

IN-02:

Joe Donnelly (D-inc): 46
Jackie Walorski (R): 44

MI-07:

Mark Schauer (D-inc): 40
Tim Walberg (R): 50

MO-03:

Russ Carnahan (D-inc): 54
Ed Martin (R): 38

OH-01:

Steve Driehaus (D-inc): 45
Steve Chabot (R): 47

OH-13:

Betty Sutton (D-inc): 43
Tom Ganley (R): 41

OH-15:

Mary Jo Kilroy (D-inc): 44
Steve Stivers (R): 49

OH-16:

John Boccieri (D-inc): 35
Jim Renacci (R): 49

Note: Check out the downright geriatric sample for the OH-16 poll -- 4% of the voters are between the ages of 18 and 34, 22% are between 35 and 49, and 74% are 50 and up. SUSA's crosstabs from 2008 had a sample breakdown among those age brackets of 20-28-52. Other polls in this batch have similar shifts, but this one is the most glaring.

WI-08:

Steve Kagen (D-inc): 39
Reid Ribble (R): 49
James L. :: 100% Chance of Pain For House Democrats: GOP Pollster
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Weird
Aren;t these Ohio results better than most other polls.  I thought Driehaus was considered DOA?

They have Driehaus winning.
That's an improvement on previous polling here done by Republican pollsters (way to torpedo your own narrative).

That's exactly what I thought when I saw this
Didn't they have him down double digits the last time?  

Even so, for the rest of the races one can attribute a 5-6pt house effect at best, which means a lot of these races are still not looking good (although Boswell seems to be keeping it together after that scandal).


[ Parent ]
My mistake, guys
I had accidentally swapped the toplines in that one. Driehaus trails by 2.

[ Parent ]
That's a one week ban
Don't let it happen again.

LOL


[ Parent ]
Hahaha
Nice one. :)

[ Parent ]
still
we're only down 2 in OH-1? Gotta be a fighting chance there given that this poll was kind of loaded anyways.

22, male, VA-10

[ Parent ]
My reaction, too, the Driehaus lead is the biggest stunner. It's funny how we form impressions here......
We really don't know what's going on in race after race in the House races.  There's just not much information.  We know Driehaus, Kilroy, Boccieri, and Sutton all are in trouble, we assume Space not so much, and we take what frankly is scant information and rank who will win and who is most likely to lose.  I'm as guilty of this as anyone.  It's what campaign junkies do, and that's what we all are here.

But really, we don't know squat, and this OH-02 poll proves it.  It's still August, and even if we lose 45 seats, we don't really know WHICH 45.  And in Ohio, if we lose a couple, we don't really know exactly which ones.

We'll have a much better grip by mid-October on the state of individual House races, but then I have to remember I went into election day 2006 CONVINCED that Shays and Gerlach were GONERS, and I was shocked they won.  In fact, I was more shocked by their survival than by any Democratic upset victory.  So we just don't know.

43, male, Indian-American, Democrat, VA-10


[ Parent ]
I dunno, I was more surprised
by Yarmuth, Hall and Shea-Porter winning.

[ Parent ]
Shea-Porter was the only completely unanticipated shocker of all the 2006/2008 Democratic pickups......
Yarmuth, Hall, and all the others we got had public polling showing a tight-as-a-tick race or other tidbits of information to make me watch all of those for possible pickups.

The only shocker, the only thing where there was ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to expect a Democratic win, was Shea-Porter's victory.  Look back at the 2006 race rankings by nonpartisan analysts, and you'll see every seat we picked up was on their radar EXCEPT Shea-Porter.  She wasn't even on anyone's extended list......someone in 2006 actually had a Top 70, and she wasn't on it.

43, male, Indian-American, Democrat, VA-10


[ Parent ]
Now, she's really ramped up her game.
Her fundraising is good and she faces a split Republican field.

Ad hoc, ad loc and quid pro quo!
So little time, so much to know!


[ Parent ]
Boyda winning was pretty unexpected.


Follow the elections in Georgia at the 2010 Georgia Race Tracker.

[ Parent ]
No, not going into election day. It broke toward her late, but over a week out I read...
...a tidbit online that Ryun's own internal polling showed him down 2.

There might have been other things I read to suggest that seat was in play, but that's all I remember vividly.

Shea-Porter was the one pickup that was on no one's radar.

43, male, Indian-American, Democrat, VA-10


[ Parent ]
She was on my list
But way down. I still have my election night chart and that seat stands out with a thick blue tick amongst a sea of red ones on either side.

[ Parent ]
I remember none of the prognosticators having it as even a lean.


Follow the elections in Georgia at the 2010 Georgia Race Tracker.

[ Parent ]
I'd say only Shea-Porter and Loebsack were unseen
and even Loebsack outraised Leach for the cycle and was running a visible campaign. Hall was a pretty high-profile guy, and was catapulted by the Foley scandal, most memorably running away from cameras, though he was to me a toss-up on election day. Yarmuth ran in a 53% Kerry district, and had what I think was the best ad of the cycle that anecdotally also turned the campaign around: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v... - I had this seat leaning towards us on election day.

[ Parent ]
KY-03 was a 51% Kerry district but point taken.


CO-02 (college)/FL-15 (home).  

[ Parent ]
Loebsack's win was NOT unseen, it was forseeable in public polling in September......
RT Stratagies published their "Majority Watch" polls in September that actually showed Loebsack up even then.  Indeed, their October polling showed Leach back up, although both polls showed a very tight race, margin-of-error separation.  So we knew that one was close pretty far out.  And at least one right-winger I know in the district, not a campaign junkie but a former journalist whose wife was active in the GOP, told me back in September or early October that year that he foresaw Leach losing.

43, male, Indian-American, Democrat, VA-10

[ Parent ]
Thanks James, but even a 47-45 deficit is MUCH better than the impression we've all had......
We've all been thinking here that Driehaus is dead, at least that he's clearly in worse shape than any other Ohio Dem incumbent.  And at least this one round of GOP polling says he's in better shape than a couple others, and certainly no worse than tossup.

43, male, Indian-American, Democrat, VA-10

[ Parent ]
Wow, this could mean that we shouldn't write Driehaus off.


Ad hoc, ad loc and quid pro quo!
So little time, so much to know!


Joke.
   Who will commission me to survey the nearest old folks' home and call it a poll?

24, Male, GA-05

Who the hell is Reid Ribble?
And how the hell is he up on two term Democratic incumbent Steve Kagan?

a state rep
And the leading candidate in the primary field there, supported by most establishment, may be teabagged in primary by former state rep Terri McCormick .

[ Parent ]
That's exactly what I was thinking
The name just stood out to me. Sort of cartoonish.

24, male, African-American, CA-24, Democrat. Chair of the SSP Black Caucus.

[ Parent ]
I utterly refuse to put any credence in this poll
mainly because it says that there will be a person in the United States Congress named "Roy Ribble".

überliberal Democrat, male, OH-12 (college), NJ-09 ("home"), Mets, Jets

Sorry about the typo
Reid Ribble. Rrreven rrrworse.

überliberal Democrat, male, OH-12 (college), NJ-09 ("home"), Mets, Jets

[ Parent ]
Still, even w/ James' correction of Driehaus v. Chabot in consideration
It still is nice to see that we wrote off Driehaus too early.

Ad hoc, ad loc and quid pro quo!
So little time, so much to know!


liking these polls for the most part
especially since they asked other crap before they got to the main question of who they'd vote for.  

OH-1 obviously is a very good number, and who knows, maybe if the topline question was asked first Driehaus would be ahead.  It'd be nice to get some corroborating evidence from elsewhere, but maybe we were all too hasty in giving up on this one.  

OH-16 is ridiculous and should be thrown out completely.  4% under 34 vote and 74% over 50.  I've spent plenty of time in places like Medina, Wadsworth, Wooster, Orrville, Ashland, etc, and while those places may be slightly older than the state as a whole, such an age breakdown is 100% bullshit.  Take 10% away from the 50-plus and add 10% to the 18-34 and that eats up all of Renacci's lead and maybe even puts Boccieri in the lead.

OH-13 is a good result for Sutton.  If you're leading in what amounts to a GOP internal for the most part, you're in good shape.  Ditto for Russ Carnahan and Joe Donnelly.  

OH-15 is actually a slight dissapointment to me, but it shows that Mary Kilroy isn't to be written off either.  Part of the problem Stivers is having is that this seat has flown right out from under the GOP politcally.  Back in 2000, it was an R+3, maybe even R+4 seat.  Now it's D+1 and moving further left.  

The only unexpectedly bad number here, I think, is WI-8.  I have us losing that seat but I didn't think Kagen would be trailing by much.  10 points is more than I would have seen, even in a poll like this.  MI-7 is bad too but I had us losing that one anyways, and if he's really down 5 or so, that's about where I had the race pegged anyhow.

23, Male, Democrat, OH-13


Wow.
I agree with you for once. Probably because there were so southern polls included. ;) The OH-16 results are not even approaching right, I'd wait to get confirmation in OH-01, no way "Wacky Jackie" in that close in IN-02, and everything else seems fine.

28, Liberal Democrat, CA-26

[ Parent ]
I never got why OH-01 has looked so bad for Dems.
Bush only won the district by 51-49 in 04 and Chabot never seemed particularly popular. Obama managed to get 55% in the district.  

CO-02 (college)/FL-15 (home).  

[ Parent ]
This is a district based around
Cincinnati and has a sizable African American popular who went strongly for Obama. Chabot is banking on much lower AA turnout in 2010.  

[ Parent ]
I don't buy any of these.
Donnelly will have a closer race this year than he did in 2008, but there's no way he's in any serious danger of losing to Wacky Jackie. That's the problem that I have with these results - they're all over the map. IN-02, OH-13, and (IMO) OH-01 are way closer than they should be. The numbers for OH-16 and maybe WI-08 are ridiculous, and obviously sampling errors. Every other poll I've seen of IA-03 has been either a dead heat or within the MOE.

Obviously we're losing seats. I just think there's something fishy about these numbers. Some are worse than they should be consistent with other polling, others are way too good to be true. Either this is the one poll that gets it right, or, more likely, it's crap.


I'm wondering what kind of polls you are reading in IA-03.
Certainly not the same as me.

Ayers and McHenry Associates (R) conducted a poll 8/16 to 8/18 showing Zaun up by 10.

Victory Enterprises (R) conducted a poll 8/4 to 8/5 showing Zaun up by 7. (MoE: 5.7%)

Victory Enterprises (R) conducted a poll 6/17/10 showing Zaun up by 9. (MoE: 4.9%)

28, Liberal Democrat, CA-26


[ Parent ]
Well, now they have serious dirt on Zaun.
Such as his questionable history and coming out against biofuels.

Ad hoc, ad loc and quid pro quo!
So little time, so much to know!


[ Parent ]
When was that?


28, Liberal Democrat, CA-26

[ Parent ]
Last week:
http://www.bleedingheartland.c...

Ad hoc, ad loc and quid pro quo!
So little time, so much to know!


[ Parent ]
the demographic breakdown
in this poll does not reflect this D+1 district (e.g. 51 percent conservatives, 14 percent liberals and only 27 percent moderates). Also undersamples women and oversamples independents by a big margin for a midterm election.

[ Parent ]
Are you sure about Donnelly?
He's in full blue dog panic freakout mode lashing out at Pelosi and anything remotely dem.  That kind of reaction usually means that you are pretty much finished as your base is disgusted with you and you won't win over any teabag votes, either.

When I heard about his recent ads, I figured he was done.


[ Parent ]
That's a good
point. There's no reason to run ads like that if you are way up over your challenger and you are not sitting in a Walt Minnick-type district.

28, Liberal Democrat, CA-26

[ Parent ]
It isn't a good point
The strategy is all about getting independents and reasonable Republicans not Teabaggers. The base is not enough on its own. I repeat what I always say - Democratic incumbents that explicitly ran against Clinton in 1994 did very well.

[ Parent ]
Of course there's something fishy here!
Driehaus is only trailing by 2, Kilroy only by 5, and they show Sutton winning!

party: Democratic, ideology: moderate, district: CT-01

[ Parent ]
That's not the reason why people think it's fishy
They think it is because of the questions and the methology of the pollsters and calling out some of the poll numbers like the districts for Kagen, Schurer, Donnelly for example. Plus I don't get why they poll this guy running againist Kagan when he's far from the nominee as there a current and former state legislator running againist Gribble. Should of polled one of them.

[ Parent ]
My comment was in jest.


party: Democratic, ideology: moderate, district: CT-01

[ Parent ]
Well, in a way it was also a serious comment
since my expectation is that these Democrats, who have been described by various commentators as vulnerable (especially Driehaus), should be down, and probably by a lot, in a Republican-leaning poll.

party: Democratic, ideology: moderate, district: CT-01

[ Parent ]
Regarding the question order
As you noted, typically favorables are asked ahead of the ballot test. PPP does this, as do most polling firms. Asking right direction/wrong track upfront (typically the first question) is also common practice. So the only allegedly "questionable" ordering is asking their opinion of the healthcare bill before the ballot test. While I agree that I'd prefer it asked afterwards, I have a hard time believing it significantly affected the results of these polls.  

It affects the results, that's why most credible polls don't do it this way, and even PPP plays with fire...
...by not asking the trial heat question first.  And they're not always right, they have their share of outliers.

Those questions ARE leading questions.  And human psychology reacts to them.

43, male, Indian-American, Democrat, VA-10


[ Parent ]
That's just not true.
Most polling firms ask favorable ratings before the ballot test. Many firms ask a host of environmental questions, including direction of the country, job approval, and even "what issue would most affect your vote" (but not individual issue questions) before the ballot test.

[ Parent ]
If you read the story
Most firms like PPP don't ask questions before the topline. They do that afterwards. Plus it can sway voters because there asking leading questions that would make you want to vote Republican. Which is the reason why prople are calling out these polls for the most part.

[ Parent ]
You're wrong in my observation or experience, including as a respondent many times......
I've been polled myself a bunch of times, on D.C. Mayor in 2006 for a Washington Post poll, a couple times (once a robopoll pre-primary, once live caller post-primary) on Virginia Governor in 2009 for the Republican National Committee, and earlier this year on the VA-10 race by, I think but am not sure, the Barnett campaign.

And except for introductory questions to identify me as a registered voter and maybe to test my likelihood of voting, and perhaps also demographic questions about myself, the first "opinion" question I always receive is  on the horse race.

It's conventional wisdom in polling that to get an accurate horse race result, you have to poll horse race before querying opinions on anything else.

43, male, Indian-American, Democrat, VA-10


[ Parent ]
Considering the shady methodology
These aren't half bad. I imagine most of the plethora of GOP internals are derived from similar practices. And it is important to take note of the fact every digest reports incumbents only now going up on tv. Dems in a world of hurt yes but certainly not as dire as Republicans like to think.

New Poster Here
While not saying that polls are totally irrelevant with such a small vote share they are much harder to poll. Given that the GOP continues to tout these polls as evidence that they are going to come in a huge tidal wave here is some recent history.  

Burns vs. Critz only 3 months ago in a swing district. Burns releases a poll before the election showing him up by 2%; 43 to 41. Reality is that he lost 54% - 46% a 10% swing. Could those undecided voters really have swung that much to Critz at the end? Did it turn out that Burns have a major skeleton in his closet? No to either. It is just that the poll was either heavily biased, attempting to write a narrative, or flat out wrong.  

Link to the "poll". http://www.politicspa.com/poli...

Dems are going to lose plenty of seat yes. But do I really buy that Brad Zaun is up by 10 points when news of him being a woman beater surfaced? Pool could have been taken before the news but hard to really hard to believe. Is Boccieri really down 14 points and Dreihaus down only 2?  

28, Male, Democrat VA-08  


Regarding PA-12
Most polling (even the credible ones) were wrong. Polling congressional races are hard to begin with. Polling congressional races in a special elction is a major pain.

As for what happened with Burns with Critz winning. Burns tried to make the race national, tying Critz to Obama and Pelosi and talking up the GOP talking points while Critz localized the race by talking about creating jobs and stimulating the economy. That's why Critz won, he localized the race and when you get to the nitty gritty, all politics is local.

As for the polls, it's hard to believe them because they come from a GOP polling firm and I don't trust partisan polls and the methology is way off and asking questions that lean GOP make me question the polls.


[ Parent ]
IA-03 poll demographics are way off
I compared the demographic breakdown in the American Action Forum poll to the actual voter turnout in 2006. They undersampled women, young people and probably Democrats and moderates. They oversampled conservatives and independents.


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