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OK-Gov, OK-Sen: Statewide Recruitment Thread

by: James L.

Wed Dec 17, 2008 at 10:00 AM EST


Democrat Brad Henry is term-limited out of the governor's office in Oklahoma in 2010... which is the same year that crank GOP Sen. Tom Coburn is up for re-election. So, it's the perfect opportunity for Henry to run for the Senate, right? Well, it would be, but the only problem is that Henry seems to have zero interest whatsoever in joining the Senate.

So, the big questions: Who should Oklahoma Democrats run to replace Henry? And who should run for Coburn's seat? Since it's not a given that Coburn will run for re-election, who might step up for the GOP? (A promotion for SSP's favorite punching bag, Tom Cole, perhaps?)
James L. :: OK-Gov, OK-Sen: Statewide Recruitment Thread
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OK-Gov, OK-Sen: Statewide Recruitment Thread | 89 comments
Governor, Senator 2010
For Governor, it seems like it could be a primary fight between Attorney General Drew Edmondson and Lt. Governor Jari Askins. For Senator, the only chance for a pick-up would be if Tom Coburn decides not to run for re-election. In that case, Dan Boren would be a likely candidate, but Brad Henry may reasess the situation.

Rice?
Andrew Rice lost by half the mmargin statewide that Obama did.  He might have a run for Governor in him.  Glenn Coffee was the stae Senate leader last year (mostly).  He might be a possibility.  Oklahoma Republicans gained control of the State Senate this November for the first time in the state's history, breaking a 24-24 tie. The State Senate had co-leaders with the Republican in charge for less than half the year.

On the Republican side, our best hope might be Ernest Istook who lost handily against Brad Henry but won a contested primary IIRC.  Mary Fallin, currently a House member, was Lt.-Governor.  I really know nothing about the other two Republicans in Congress (other than Cole).  Maybe Lucas for example wants to go state wide or Sullivan.

This is going to be a tough run for Senator.  Oklahoma gave McCain over 65% of the vote, his highest statewide percentage anywhere.  McCain carried every county in Oklahoma. Governor seems to be a different animal just as it is for, sy, Republicans in Massachusetts.  We have a real shot there.

I've given up on the state
Democrats keep running strong candidates well suited for their districts and well funded and they keep losing by large margins. A moderate to conservative Republican in Tulsa switched parties, and despite having won narrowly before against Democrats, this time voters completely rejected her agaisnt Democrats, they voted agaisnt her becuase of the D beside her name. Its one state where even the 18-24 was like 65-34 McCain, the only state with worse news was culturally conservative Utah where the youth were 67-33 for McCain while the normally more conservative GenXers were 54-45 McCain.  

Call no man happy until he is dead-Aeschylus
[ Parent ]
Georgianna Oliver turned out to be a trainwreck...
I was a fan of her campaign early on but it turned out to be a total trainwreck. She talked a REALLY good game shortly after she made her announcement. I was at one particular event where she vowed to raise one million dollars to take on Sullivan and seemed willing to reach into her own deep pockets.

While I was impressed by her commitment, I could never understand her campaign. The first sign of trouble came after she only beat her little-known primary challanger 56-44. I remember listening to her being interviewed on NPR saying something about healthcare that could have come straight from the mouth of your typical right-wing Republican. Her comment about healthcare pissed off my yelldog Democrat father so much that I think he wrote in Doug Dodd (a former candidate from earlier this decade).

While we certainly have a long way to go here in Tulsa, Georgianna Oliver's campaign is not a good barometer of the progressive movement here in the first congressional district.

I'm a Ralph Yarborough Democrat

[ Parent ]
I was talking about that state senaotor
Nancy something, who lost solely becuase she switched parties.  

Call no man happy until he is dead-Aeschylus
[ Parent ]
Yeah, so have I...
I'm really starting to wonder if Brad Henry has been a fluke. Other than the Governor, no other Democrat can win statewide. It's a miracle that Boren can even keep his Congressional seat!

It seems that no matter what kind of economic populist message we use, it always gets drowned out by "culture wars" crap. I'm really starting to think that perhaps the best we can hope for is that Boren holds onto his House seat.

C4O Democrats: A Place for All Democrats

[ Parent ]
statewide
Aren't most of the statewide elected officials Democrat?  Or has there been an overturn, I know recently most statewides were Dems.
[ Parent ]
Yes...
But that's probably the only remnant left (other than Boren in the House) of what used to be OK's long Democratic tradition. And even with our strong bench, the race for Governor is probably a "Toss-up" at best considering how the political winds in that state are blowing so strongly against us. I just hope we can find a Gubernatorial candidate who can pull off a miracle and win in 2010.

C4O Democrats: A Place for All Democrats
[ Parent ]
Yes,
the seven constitutional officers and the governor are Democrats. In 2006 we picked up the open Lt. Governor's office and beat an incumbent Republican for Labor Commissioner. In state elections I think Democrats can still compete. In Senate elections, at least in the short term, if we do not have some widly popular person to run, I don't see us winning, particularly in a presidential year.
[ Parent ]
Probably Henry or bust in the Senate race
This strikes me as one of those Senate races where we have to have one particular candidate to have any shot at winning.  Considering Henry seems to have no interest in running it's probably not going to happen.  So we'll probably be stuck with another second-string candidate like Rice who will lose by a similar 15 point or so margin.

Coburn's running for reelection
he had a two term pledge in 2004. As for Governor, it'll probably be Fallin with some minor opposition. Oklahoma City Mayor Micky Cornett will run for her open congressional seat, probably against Denise Bode. Rice should run for that open seat as that is all he has even a small shot in. Popular four term Attorney General Drew Edmonson will probably run for Governor and has a good shot at winning depending what the environment looks like.  

Call no man happy until he is dead-Aeschylus
I sure hope so
Coburn is one of the top 3 Senators right now, we need him to run for re-election.

A cat can have kittens in an oven but that doesn't make them biscuits.
[ Parent ]
Ya, he's a real gem
That's why he wants rape and incest victims locked up if they choose not to keep the child.  The man is a real piece of work.
[ Parent ]
While
I dont agree with such a stance I can certainly understand it.  

A cat can have kittens in an oven but that doesn't make them biscuits.
[ Parent ]
Seriously?
I can understand reasonable views on choice, but this is not one of them.  There is no room in politics for such warped views as believing that victims of rape should be forced to carry the child.  It takes a sick, twisted person to even come up with a position that insane.
[ Parent ]
But on the flip side
What about the baby in the matter? This isnt just a matter of the woman, but a child as well. A child who will be given a death sentence for the actions of their father. That is no legal in our country.

It pains me trying to come up with my view on the matter. There are no winners in the matter. I consider myself netural on the matter, but I can certainly understand the desire to save an innocent child from being murdered. I consider it very sensible, even if I dont agree with it.

A cat can have kittens in an oven but that doesn't make them biscuits.

[ Parent ]
The mother's body
And yes, it is legal in our country up until so many months into the pregnancy.  It's an evil, but a necessary one in man cases.
[ Parent ]
actually
Im not saying abortion is illegal. I was talking about punishing a child for their father's crimes. Sadly its not and thousands of children are killed everyday because of it. One day I hope we can progress enough that abortion for birth control sake is illegal but I doubt it.

What Im trying to get across however is to help you see the other sides thinking, as I assume you are pro-choice. That rape is a very horrible, horrible thing, but that rape can not justify murder of someone who has nothing to do with it.


A cat can have kittens in an oven but that doesn't make them biscuits.

[ Parent ]
Do you somehow think this didn't go on in the past
It's been going on for thousands of years.  In fact I've seen a few studies that estimate the rate of abortion was very similar pre Roe v. Wade than post.  The only difference is that if it's criminalized it will go back to being performed in medieval conditions that is used to be, often killing the mother as well.

That's what I don't get with "small government conservatives."  They preach against big government until a hot-button issue like this one comes along and what do you know, all of a sudden they want the government to criminalize it.  

[ Parent ]
No
Making something illegal doesnt stop it 100%, but any drop in birth control abortion rates would be great. Making murder of other people illegal doesnt stop it, but it does help cut down on murder and creates punishment for those who commit it.  

A cat can have kittens in an oven but that doesn't make them biscuits.
[ Parent ]
Here will my two cents
Not a single child dies when they are aborted.  They aren't children, they aren't kids, they aren't babies.  Fetuses and groups of cells die during abortion,  and they aren't cute or cuddly and I sure as shit don't feel nearly as bad about aborting them compared to the cute damn kids in those billboards.

So no need to punish the child for the father's crimes.  If it does become a child, well then the child will be punished simply by not having a father so in that sense I spose the child is punished.  However, fetuses, not children are punished for their father's crimes.  Then one must ask if they are really even considered the father or a father when the fetus hasn't even come out yet.

It's always, Im going to be a father, not I am a father.  So from that belief, a fetus isn't punished for its father's actions but rather it is being terminated (punished implies the fetus is aware of what is going on and is in a mindset to be "punished") due to the guy who gave 23 chromosome for that fetus.  Fathering, at least how Americans have evolved the term, to one involving children and not fetuses.  (possibly, one can argue the other way on that and still be valid)

This is why I hate the abortion issue the most, it all comes down to phrasing, framing, and other bullshit pull at my heart strings crap instead of logic and reasoning.  Pro-lifers can sure as shit win based on those criteria, well I guess they can't because the Supreme Court already told them they can't.  But I can certainly see the logic in a pro-life stance much over the hymns and prayer circles to pray away abortion.

[ Parent ]
Although I consider myself pro-choice
and I agree with the right to have an abortion, although, like most people, I strongly discourage it in any case,  I doubt abortions will remain legal for very much longer.  Although todays young people are majority liberal and vote for Democrats, many tend to be pro-life.  Polls show opposition to abortion has grown since the 1970s.  From my own experience, particularly young women seem more opposed to abortion than older women.  There are no polls to back up this assumption, only my personal experience.  Of course, that may change once the woman gets older.  And many polls show a majority of Americans still suport abortion rights, even a majority of catholics.  But I have my doubts to whether abortion will still be legal in say, 2050, maybe 2030, but more likely the former.  And I may be completely wrong, maybe opposition to abortion is sinking as evangelicals and church in general play a smaller and smaller role in peoples lives.  But I think it is imperative that we do all we can to prevent unneccessary pregnancies and prevent the need for abortions in the first place.

"[Rush Limbaugh] is a sorry excuse for a human being and a has-been hypocrite loser who was more lucid when he was a drug addict." Congressman Alan Grayson (D-FL)
[ Parent ]
There lies the problem
The same nutters screaming for it to be criminalized also oppose birth control and more and more pharmacists are refusing to even distribute it.  They can't have their cake and eat it too.

I think Roe will eventually get overturned, but it will have little effect.  All it wil do is throw the decision back to the states.  And the conservative states already have almost no clinics.  Mississippi will still be Mississippi where it's illegal and New York will still be New York where it's legal.

[ Parent ]
Say what?
I have not run into anybody who is for making birth control illegal period, just birth control abortion. Even the Catholics I know that have talked to me about this arent even against birth control (not that condoms comes up a whole lot in conversation usually lol).

Non abortion birth control is a wonderful thing, though the only sure way not to get pregant is not to have sex with a woman at all.

A cat can have kittens in an oven but that doesn't make them biscuits.

[ Parent ]
I'm someone in the center
I can't bear to call myself pro-choice, but I also think most of the pro-life arguments are stupid. I know a lot of pro-lifers who oppose birth control, a lot of whom who oppose real sex education. Frankly, (and I"m going to jokingly call myself a hedonist here), people are not going to stop having sex and shouldn't have too. It's a responsibility issue for me and I don't like easy on demand abortions because it discourages people from being responsible. Stupid idiots sleeping around everywhere without condoms or birth control should not be allowed to get abortion after abortion.

Now one idea I once had was to require doctors doing the procedure to offer women an alternative. I suggested paying a lum sum to carry the child and put it up for adoption, as there aren't enough children in the adoptions system. Their were a lot of flaws and empty bases on that too however, mainly honesty.

The morning after pill is not birth control abortion it simply prevents a zygote from attaching to womb, (forget the scientific term its been a while since biology I), in many women who have trouble getting pregnant this happens anyway. I don't equate abortion with murder however.

But, as much as I'm dogging pro-lifers, I'll admit Kyle I can't stand ardent pro-choicers either. Any restritction on abortion is equivalated with subjugating woman into slavery. Abortions should be easy, whether the person was being responsible doesn't matter and the pre-baby being destroyed is as insignificant as the monthly trash. But my ideology leans more with pro-choicers and at the end of the day I don't want to ban abortions and think that argument is so much stronger against. Purely logical kyle. So, here's is the scenari; abortion can be safe and happen, or an equal number can happen in closets with broom sticks and hangers or in shady hotel rooms at midnight where you're likely to wake up missing a kidney. One way very few women die, another, many die. Either way a nearly equal number of fetus's die. I usually the choose the path of less suffering, regardless of my personal beliefs. Pro-lifers have made the poor decision of all or nothing for decades when they could have been working on decreasing the number of abortions. I believe in public education programs, counseling for any woman making the decision, (with a real pyscologist), so she can be sure and resolute about the decision. If a woman is taking birth control the odds of getting pregnant are very low, and if the man is wearing a condom on top of that that odds are extremely low. This would prevent most accidentally pregnancies and this should be the end goal of any self avowed pro-lifer. If banning it makes you feel better go ahead and keep trying, but the same number of abortions will happen anyway and many women will die and many families will be devestated. Do you want that on your concious? I don't want it on mine. So I will choose the path where I can tackle the issue from the outside, that is the path the movement should have taken decades ago. But, hey, that would be too dull, and demagogues needed to work up the ignorant masses into a frenzy, so why try to do it the effective way?

Call no man happy until he is dead-Aeschylus

[ Parent ]
less abortion
I agree, there should be more programs to help prevent abortions. I think even creating a massive tax on invitrofertizaltion (spelling???) to help lower adoption costs would be great as well.  

I doubt you are going to have the same number of women putting their lives at risk for an illegal abortion than for a legal one in a "clinic".  

A cat can have kittens in an oven but that doesn't make them biscuits.

[ Parent ]
many would, i know if I were
a women I would do whatever the hell I wanted and wouldn't let anyone stop me. I wouldn't even consider the risk or what I was doing becuase I'd be so TO'd.

In Oklahoma, a conservative wholesome state, even more so in the 40s and 50s days of Beaver and Lucy, a pro-choicer gave me a haunting statistic. In a state with a small population, strongly pro-life leanings, religious, over two decades several thousands of women died from botched abortions, many from hemoraghing at home becuase they were afraid to guy to the hosiptal and possibly be tried for doing it. The numbers are there, hidden away in the shadows of many tombstones. Today many people are accustomed to having it legal and would still do it, at their own risk regardless. In addition the law would probably end up putting tens of thousands of women's health doctors in prison or out of commission as i know many of them would not stand for this either. That would leave us with a shortage there. Agh. Banning abortion is like cutting the head off of a hydra; it opens up many more problems and conondrums than it solves. I tried to argue that position for a long time but eventually I ran out of gum to plug up the leaks that were springing up everywhere in that argument.  

Call no man happy until he is dead-Aeschylus

[ Parent ]
Bad, but.....
" know if I were
a women I would do whatever the hell I wanted and wouldn't let anyone stop me"

Well if that was the case any injury or death would be her fault, not anyone elses.  

A cat can have kittens in an oven but that doesn't make them biscuits.

[ Parent ]
what did you think about all this though?
In Oklahoma, a conservative wholesome state, even more so in the 40s and 50s days of Beaver and Lucy, a pro-choicer gave me a haunting statistic. In a state with a small population, strongly pro-life leanings, religious, over two decades several thousands of women died from botched abortions, many from hemoraghing at home becuase they were afraid to guy to the hosiptal and possibly be tried for doing it. The numbers are there, hidden away in the shadows of many tombstones. Today many people are accustomed to having it legal and would still do it, at their own risk regardless. In addition the law would probably end up putting tens of thousands of women's health doctors in prison or out of commission as i know many of them would not stand for this either. That would leave us with a shortage there. Agh. Banning abortion is like cutting the head off of a hydra; it opens up many more problems and conondrums than it solves. I tried to argue that position for a long time but eventually I ran out of gum to plug up the leaks that were springing up everywhere in that argument.

No comment? And hey, I'm sorry everybody is ganging up on you a bit. I've had worse on redstate though, were people have insulted me as a person, cussed me out, insulted my intelligence, told me satan had a nice spot in hell for me, and then when I try to argue back I immediately get banned, and my arguing is logical and respectful. They have not been very pleasant people to me to say the least. lol/  

Call no man happy until he is dead-Aeschylus

[ Parent ]
No comment?
No I just dont have the time to be on here all day.

If a woman kills herself killing a baby I certainly feel sorry for the baby, not the woman. I would feel sorry for the woman's family. But protecting innocent babies lives outweights the problems of women doing illegal acts and killing themselves in the end.

A cat can have kittens in an oven but that doesn't make them biscuits.

[ Parent ]
ok


Call no man happy until he is dead-Aeschylus
[ Parent ]
I am a woman.
And I prefer that the government stay away from my reproductive rights and leave the choice only, only, only between me and my doctor. I don't like abortion either (though I am still 100% pro-choice), but banning abortion outright will not stop abortions; it will only drive them into the criminal underworld, much like Prohibition with alcohol.

And even if there are fewer women seeking illegal abortions than legal ones, they are still going to suffer major complications that would only add to our already outrageously high health care costs. Here is an article about the strain of unsafe abortions on the Philippines' health care system. Abortion is illegal in the Philippines, but still about 400,000 abortions are performed there each year.

http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs...

The consequences of unsafe abortion for women's health and survival in the Philippines are evident from the large numbers being treated each year for abortion-related complications. Moreover, this number increased in Manila and Visayas during the 1990s.29 Given the fact that substantial proportions of women who have complications do not receive treatment at a medical facility, the estimated annual rate of 4.5 per 1,000 women most likely underestimates the size of this problem. In addition, treatment of abortion complications absorbs scarce medical resources and incurs large costs to the public health system.


Check out the 2010 California races (http://2010californiaracetracker.wetpaint.com) and help us take back Red California! (http://www.takebackredcalifornia.org)
[ Parent ]
backwards
"but banning abortion outright will not stop abortions"

Outlawing murder doesnt stop all murders.

Making it illegal to run red lights doesnt stop all red light runners.

Making owning car insurance if you drive a car doesnt mean everyone has car insurance.

Should we make all those things legal?

A cat can have kittens in an oven but that doesn't make them biscuits.

[ Parent ]
bad analagies
banning abortion fails to solve the problem. Outlawing murder is jus commonsense but most people know they are doing something morally wrong and breaking the law when they murder.  

Call no man happy until he is dead-Aeschylus
[ Parent ]
No, those things should not be legal
Because there is a mountain of empirical evidence that proves those things you listed being illegal DOES cause a substancial decrease in incidence.

Outlawing abortion on the other hand has not been proven to be an effective deterrant.  Not only is it not a deterrant, but it causes colatteral damage (i.e. women dying trying to have unsafe abortions performed).

In a sense outlawing abortion would be similar to making it legal to run redlights.  By that I mean if running redlights were legal, not only would people do it far more often, but masses of people would be killed by redlight runners as a result.

[ Parent ]
that's a little cold though
It's like you're blaming on the women for seeking to control her own body and then dying because of it. I can't even think of an anecdote to match this. It's like Pontius Pilate washing his hands clean after of his decision to send Jesus Christ to die, saying, "it is not my decision." For society to coldly sit by and watch people die because it contracts their morals is unacceptable, purely unacceptable and unimaginable.  

Call no man happy until he is dead-Aeschylus
[ Parent ]
Women's bodies
Women have the right to control their bodies. And they allow a man to have sex with them. That is their control. They should have no control over if another person lives or dies because they dont feel like having a baby IMO.

A cat can have kittens in an oven but that doesn't make them biscuits.
[ Parent ]
What about rapists?


Check out the 2010 California races (http://2010californiaracetracker.wetpaint.com) and help us take back Red California! (http://www.takebackredcalifornia.org)
[ Parent ]
Ive already said
that I want abortion for birth control reasons outlawed, not for abortion in the cases of rapes, women's health, etc.

A cat can have kittens in an oven but that doesn't make them biscuits.
[ Parent ]
you misunderstand my point
you're talking about the political issue, I was talking about coldly standing by and blaming women for dying from botched abortions because they didn't play your moral game. And even as some one who doesn't like abortion at all I don't like this:

They should have no control over if another person lives or dies

The child is completely dependent on the woman for survival. Can you carry a child? Will you ever have to deal with that kind of life change? No, then don't be so quick to judge and condemn.  

Call no man happy until he is dead-Aeschylus

[ Parent ]
I agree.
And to women like me, those kinds of statements are not just cold, but hurtful. The fetus is not a person if it can't completely survive outside the woman. It is still part of the woman's body. I don't want to not be able to control part of my own body.


And if the fetus really is a person, then under the due process clause of the Constitution we would have to...

- Count them in the Census

- Provide protection for them in every state's Department of Children, Embryo and Family Services.

- Perform autopsies and undertake investigations into every miscarriage, because, after all, it might be a murder, and hold funerals for miscarriages. Good luck with the miscarriages that happen spontaneously, without the women feeling a thing.

- Imprison women for "negligent homicide" if they don't realize they are pregnant and smoke, drink, go skydiving, or jump on trampolines. (Pregnant women are advised to not do these.)

- Place children born with birth defects in foster care since they may have been abused in utero.

- Have federal agents monitoring all pregnancies in doctor's offices to see that the health and welfare of fetuses is not being violated throughout their mother's pregnancies.

If a fetus is a person, how should the state deal with pregnant woman incarcerated in prison? After all, the fetus hadn't committed any crime, and no person can be deprived of his or her liberty without due process of law. So the fetus should be freed, even if the mother remains locked up, correct?

In fertility treatments, clinics routinely use multiple fertilized eggs as a means of increasing the chances of a successful pregnancy. Currently, the unused eggs are discarded. If a fertilized egg is a person, however, we couldn't just dispose of them. What, then, are we to do? Forcibly implant the fertilized eggs into the woman that donated them? What if she doesn't want any more children?

According to the fourteenth amendment, "All persons born or naturalized in the United States and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside." Citizenship, consequently, depends upon where a child is born. So what is the citizenship of a fetus?

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[ Parent ]
It doesn't matter to these people ArkDem
They want it banned out of some misguided principle.  They never bother to stop and think about all the horrid side-effects that criminalized abortion would cause.

And if you notice "pro-lifers" NEVER want to come out and say what penalties women and doctors would incur once abortion is illegal.

Here's a question I have for any pro-lifer.  What penalty should a woman face who is raped and has an abortion?  5 years in jail? 10?  And how would you like to look into the face of someone raped and tell them they have no choice but to give birth to the baby of their rapist?

[ Parent ]
Side effects
Are lesser with outlawing birth control abortion than keeping things as they are.

Its the lesser of two bad situations.

A cat can have kittens in an oven but that doesn't make them biscuits.

[ Parent ]
No, they actually are NOT
You've already been given examples of that not being true.  The Phillippines, as has been noted, has had abortion outlawed and it has not decreased abortions.  It's increased them AND led to the deaths of many thousands of women getting unsafe procedures.  Same was the case pre Roe v. Wade in the Unites States, and the same could someday be the case again.
[ Parent ]
Actually you are going to have th same
Multiple studies bear this out.  The number of abortions will remain about the same regardless of legality.  Look at newspaper ads from pre-Roe days and you'll see plenty of ads for backalley abortions.  I suspect if abortions were criminalized nowadays places like myspace and craigslist would be where the advertisements would be found.  

It's also a class issue.  Rich people have always had better access to abortions.  If say, Roe were overturned you'd still have rich people in the south getting safe abortions because they can afford to fly to New York or California to get it.  It's the poor who likely would be cut-off from safe access.

A good case study for seeing how far women will go to get an abortion is communist Romania.  

[ Parent ]
Such as this.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4...

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[ Parent ]
Thanks
I knew there was a recent film about Romania, but couldn't remember the name.
[ Parent ]
I don't believe it
I'm in favor of abortion rights (at least up to about 20 weeks or so), but the argument that criminalizing abortion would not lead to a reduction in the number of abortions does not make any sense to me.  The more expensive, the greater the cost in terms of health risk or criminal sanction, it just makes sense that fewer women would choose to have an abortion.  The benefit of getting an abortion doesn't change but the cost goes up.  Thus, fewer women will choose to get an abortion.  Now, whether that's 1% or 99% fewer, seems open to question.  But, I cannot imagine that it wouldn't have some effect on the number of abortions if it were criminalized.  You can also look at the number of abortions pre and post Roe.  The rate went way up after Roe.

BTW, since Kyle seems in the minority here, I'll give him a little moral support.  If I believed a fetus should have the same rights as a born person, I'd be anti-abortion.  The pro-life position makes sense to me logically--I just don't believe a fetus deserves the same legal protections and considerations as a born person.

[ Parent ]
Not necessarily.
It's true that legal abortions went way up after Roe, simply because abortion went from being allowed in just a few states to being allowed in all states. But the total number may not have gone up by much if at all if you count the illegal back alley abortions.

And it is a fact that countries with legalized abortion have lower abortion rates than countries where abortion is illegal.

http://www.guttmacher.org/medi...

Significantly, the abortion rate for 2003 was roughly equal in developed and developing regions-26 and 29, respectively-despite abortion being largely illegal in developing regions. Health consequences, however, vary greatly between the two regions, since abortion is generally safe where it is broadly legal and mostly unsafe where restricted.


Check out the 2010 California races (http://2010californiaracetracker.wetpaint.com) and help us take back Red California! (http://www.takebackredcalifornia.org)
[ Parent ]
I'm Skeptical
While I do not doubt that there were significantly more back alley abortions pre-Roe, I'm pretty skeptical that these fully accout fot the increase in abortions post-Roe.  To convince me, I'd have to see some sort of research, although I'm not sure there is anything out there on it due to the difficulty of counting back alley abortions.  It just doesn't make sense to me that criminalization and the attendent costs in money, health risk, and moral oprobrium had no impact on the number of abortions.

As to comparing developed and nondeveloped countries, I think there are other factors that explain similar abortion rates.  In particular, I suspect that in countries where abortion is outlawed, lesser sex education and access to birth control result in higher rates of pregnancy.  Thus, even if the abortion rate is similar, the ratio of abortions to live births would be much greater in developed countries.  Any similarity in abortion rates doesn't tell us what would happen if abortion were criminalized (and enforced) in developed rates.

[ Parent ]
That is a good point.
Though good luck trying to enforce abortion bans. Enforcement of such a ban would require even more government resources (as we are seeing with the current War on Drugs and as we saw with Prohibition in the early 20th century), possibly taking away from resources that could have helped women avoid unwanted pregnancies in the first place.

Check out the 2010 California races (http://2010californiaracetracker.wetpaint.com) and help us take back Red California! (http://www.takebackredcalifornia.org)
[ Parent ]
with respect
a vacuum and coat hanger are free. As sad as that is. You can charge 10K for an abortion, but if a woman wants to get one, she'll find a way.  
[ Parent ]
Sorry Kyle
But you're not paying attention then. Look to the big wig Christian groups. They're trying to convince people that birth control is a form of abortion. Its really sick. I suggest reading 'How the Pro-Choice Movement Saved America' it made me angry. lol

You are right, most people would not want to make birth control illegal, but those with money have an agenda that goes beyond abortion; thiers is a war on sex for any reason but procreation.  

[ Parent ]
Hey, anybody remember when
this thread used to be about the Oklahoma Senate race?

No? Me either.

[ Parent ]
More chance of Roe being overturned
Than Oklahoma electing a Democratic Senator.
[ Parent ]
hahahahaha
touche
[ Parent ]
and he believes in no pork
not even to fund important state projects and help local communities. This no pork attitude is harmful to his constituents. Arizona better thank Udall, because without his water diversion project there wouldn't be much of a state there today.

Coburn, no offense, is an idiotic nutjob with a loud mouth and a penchant for saying wildly offbase and offensive things. However even he is better than Inoufe.  

Call no man happy until he is dead-Aeschylus

[ Parent ]
Oh is he now?
Because as recently as a month ago, he was still publicly undecided:

U.S. Sen. Tom Coburn said that while he hasn't yet decided on whether to run for a second term in the Senate, he has no plans to enter the 2010 governor's race in Oklahoma.

Coburn, R-Okla., spoke Tuesday at the Republican Women's Club of Tulsa. Before his speech, he said the fact a "Coburn for Senate" Web site has been activated should not be taken as confirmation he will seek re-election for that office in 2010.

The Web site is "something you have to do if you have any money come in," he said, before telling reporters he does not plan to run for governor.


[ Parent ]
Henry WILL NOT run for Senate.
I would be shocked if Henry ran. Him and former Senator David Boren (current President of the University of Oklahoma) are unfortunately the only two Democrats capable of winning the Senate race. Neither one of them are viable possibilities.

Like yall said, Governor is a totally different situation. My choice is our longtime Attorney General Drew Edmonson. He's the bane of the right-wing's existence here in Oklahoma. While he's still a very moderate Democrat, he has a lot more fight in him than Henry. A more aggressive version of Henry would do this state a ton of good.

While I think Edmonson is very, very likely to run for governor, don't be surprised if there's a primary between him and current Lt. Governor Jari Askins. While I'm a big believer that (most) tough primaries ultimately help us, an Edmonson Askins matchup is not something we want. A high profile primary would be great if neither candidate was particularly well-known but both Askins and Edmonson have good enough name I.D. as it is. Furthermore, Askins campaign for Lt. Gov. in 2006 got slightly ugly in the primary so I'm definitely hoping that Askins decides to stay put at Lt. Gov.

Although we have a deep bench, the only other potential candidates for either Senate or Governor at this point are U.S. Congressman Dan Boren and State Treasurer Scott Meacham. At this point, though, I'd say both of them are unlikely.  

I'm a Ralph Yarborough Democrat

Correct me if I'm wrong
but aren't there more registered Democrats in Oklahoma than Republicans?  Of course, the electorate in Oklahoma is about as conservative as any state East of Oklahoma.  I could see a conservative Democrat winning Oklahoma's Governors race, but I don't see the Dems winning the Senate race.  I think Boren lost to Coburn by 12% in 2004, and that may be close to the ceiling in Oklahoma.  Not to try sounding like a Debbie Downer, but I'd rather have the DSCC concentrate on other senate races in 2010.
Not sounding like a Debbie Downer at all..
Without Henry or David Boren, I don't see how we beat Coburn. Coburn's more popular than Inhofe and Inhofe just trounced Rice. The only chance we'll ever have at picking up a Senate seat is if either seat opens up or against Inhofe in a non-Presidential election year.


I'm a Ralph Yarborough Democrat
[ Parent ]
You are correct
there are more registered Democrats than Republicans in Oklahoma, but that is very misleading. In the Southeast part of the state the Democratic primary is the general election for local offices (Republicans do not bother to run for them), so many people register as a Democrat to vote in local elections. Also, Coburn beat Brad Carson in 2004 (I worked for Carson that year). In a non-presidential year I think we have a better shot at winning in Oklahoma, but that is still a tough race. The only three I could see beating Coburn are Gov. Henry (I would consider it about a 50/50 shot for us to win in that scenario), AG Drew Edmondson (Also about a 50/50 shot) and Rep. Dan Boren (still would favor Coburn, but he has a decent chance to win. Unfortunatly, Henry seems uninterested, Edmondson should run for governor, and Boren I think only runs if Coburn retires.
     I hope the field is clear for Edmondson. He is clearly our best candidate for governor and a primary would be dangerous. If he passes I think Dan Boren is our best bet, but Lt. Governor Askins would be good. I also hope to see state Senator Jay Paul Gumm and state Rep. John Carey run statewide in the near future. Carey will probably need to run for one of the constitutional offices first; Gumm is a possible gubernatorial candidate.
      I expect Mary Falin to run for governor for the Republicans. If Coburn retires, I think Sullivan could run for them, maybe some others too.
[ Parent ]
Carson
What is Carson doing these days?  I thought he ran a good campaign against Coburn in 2004, but that OK in a presidential year was just a bridge too far.

If Boren runs for Senate or Governor, would he run for his old seat?  Perhaps a post in the Obama administration, such as head of the Bureau of Indian Affairs?

[ Parent ]
I'd love for Boren to run
At the very least we'd get a better Dem in his house seat.  Though he'd make Ben Nelson look like Russ Reingold if here were in the Senate.
[ Parent ]
That's a wierd house seat
People in southeast Oklahoma do vote pretty Democratic (outside of presidential elections and even then they are probably better than the rest of the state), but they want conservative Democrats. If Boren vacates the seat, he will most likely be replaced by a similiar Democrat
[ Parent ]
Not necessarily
Carson was a good deal left of Boren.
[ Parent ]
Maybe
Carson was pretty conservative when he held the seat.  And, before him was Coburn.  Even though I think a D would be favored to hold the seat if Boren left, I doubt it would be a guarantee.  And, even if a D did win, he or she would likely be very conservative relative to all congressional Ds.
[ Parent ]
I think it would be a D hold,
if Boren vacated the seat. It was drawn in the last redistricing to be a safe Democratic seat. When Coburn held the seat, it was more based in the Northeast part of the state.
[ Parent ]
Didn't Mike Synar represent this district before Coburn?
Synar had a moderate to liberal voting record.  A Democrat doesn't need to be as conservative as Boren to hold this district.
[ Parent ]
Boren didn't lose,
two term Rep Brad Henry lost.  

Call no man happy until he is dead-Aeschylus
[ Parent ]
Actually it was
Brad Carson, not Brad Henry
[ Parent ]
yeah, oops
Brad Carson Brad Henry...I interchanged the two of them.  

Call no man happy until he is dead-Aeschylus
[ Parent ]
If Brad Henry doesn't run...
And it doesn't look like he will, OK-Sen is pretty much a lost cause. Oklahoma is one of the few states where McCain actually performed better than Bush, and Tom Coburn actually has a pretty good approval rating.

Unfortunately, the trend is shifting against us in OK & Coburn probably has that Senate seat for as long as he wants it. Ugh. :-(

C4O Democrats: A Place for All Democrats

Thank God
he does not appear to want it that long.
[ Parent ]
Despite Obama's performance statewide
he actually did better than Kerry in the cities of Tulsa and Oklahoma City (which was balanced out by McCain doing better everywhere else in the state).  Maybe one of those small urban congressional districts will finally become competitive for us, besides the already Dem-leaning eastern rural district.

As for senator, it's probably Henry or no one.

oh, I've got your candidate
http://www.campaignmoney.com/p...

Pro: Democrat, Oklahoma legend, not sure what he's doing
Con: 71 years old, would run in Oklahoma as a Democrat

Am I crazy?  We could definitely do worse.  Maybe Congressman Shuler could give him some advice about the transition into politics.

Why not?
Actually, he was involved in Brad Henry's 2002 gubernatorial run and Brad Carson's Senate run. Would probably be the most conservative Democrat in the senate, but I will take that over Coburn.
[ Parent ]
Looks like a primary
between Edmonson and Askins is shaping up. I hope one of them takes a go at the Senate.

Also, Cole for Senate! Then we can have a Cole NRSC deathwatch!

LOL
He'd have to be a better Democrat than that asshat Boren. Boren didn't even endorse Obama!
Oh yeah
I recall his reasoning, too: that Obama wasn't bipartisan enough and that he hasn't reached enough across the aisle in the Senate. Fuck that guy -- seriously.
[ Parent ]
I could understand
his not endorsing Obama (his is one of districts held by a Democrat that Obama would be a drag). But giving ammunition to the other side by claiming Obama was too partisan is unacceptable.
[ Parent ]
My view as an Oklahoman
There are many good canidates for either seat and in a none pres. year with a good canidate at the top for gov. We have chance. Oklahoma on like most states did not get any bluer in the last election but on like say Arkansas it did not move the wrong way either 67/33 but we have a deep bench of well know state wide elected dems. Brad Henry is are best choice at senate but if cole runs for gov and I think he will from what I here then we could make that race more competive and with beter preformance in cd-4 I think state sen. John sparks will run for that and he can raise the money to make it a real race a good canidate from western oklahoma like State tresure Scott Meacham could preform well in the senate race and may even have a 50/50 chance at an open seat and like 60/40 against if coburn runs. There is always Barry Switzer or Tobias Covell but I don't see him giving up is recording contract and either edmonson or askins make great canidates for either seat and jerry could help with turn out in her base in Duncan which would help are canidate in CD-4 so I would prefer them in this order

Gov. Jerry Askins, Drew Edmondson
Ltgov. If Jerry runs for gov. Anderew Rice, Pete Regan or Jay Parmaly
And for Senate Brad Henry Scott Meacham Jerry Askins Dan Boren  

Fuck it, let's run a Communist
Oklahoma is extremely unlikely to elect a Democratic Senator and I'd be surprised if they held the Governor's chair either.

It's going the wrong way pretty badly and I can't see that changing - how much worse would it have to get for that to happen? So I for one am all in favour of finding the furthest left candidate we can get and running him, just to give Tom Coburn the type of opponent he deserves.

haha
And then as a party condom communisim. lol That way coservatives will lose that whole, they're all socilists line. haha
[ Parent ]
Oklahoma is not going the wrong way
It just ain't going the right way either at least on a presidential level there was almost no change in oklahoma the last election a few hundred votes that's all
[ Parent ]
Yes
Meantime, the rest of the country shifted Democratic by about 10 points. So I'd call staying still going the wrong way, viewed in comparison to America as a whole.
[ Parent ]
if we assume that
is a 10 point slip then sense Arkansas moved to the right 11 points we should flea there in a hurry as that's a 21 point slip the wrong way but Dems currently run the state and here in Oklahoma we control almost every state wide office and i think we have a chance at cd-4 if it opens and at coburn with the right candidate in 2008 dems can continue to win in Oklahoma as the do in Arkansas we just need the right candidates and some national support
[ Parent ]
At the state level
We're still doing fine.  We hold something like 7 or 8 statewide elected offices outside of the Senate seats.  Though we did see a very poor showing at the state legislative level, losing the state Senate and quite a few state house seats.  
[ Parent ]
Oklahoma
At the state level we can still win. I personally think we will hold the governor's mansion, but we need to rebuild the party in this state. Winning more seats in the state legislture is important. We have gone from 53 seats in the state house before the 2004 election to 40 now, losing four this year. In the near term this state will be hard in federal elections, but we have the ability to rebuild at the state and local level and turn the state around.  
[ Parent ]
OK-Gov, OK-Sen: Statewide Recruitment Thread | 89 comments

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